I can think of two ways to tell which corner is which at any given time during a teach.
When facing Across IN ANY GIVEN HANDS FOUR, if you have a  R diagonal person you are at first corner, L diagonal- second corner.

Likewise WITHIN a hands four, facing up and down (like at the beginning of a dance facing N for example)those whose inside hand is the L are at first corner, those whose inside hand is R, are at second corner.

They need to think not that they are identifying themselves, but remembering the diagonals we call first and second, because as soon as they swing to swap, they are on a different diagonal/ at a different corner.  

Swinging.  Who puts their R hand on the back, who the L?  Or do you teach symmetrical swings?  The latter is a matter for organizers, but if you are going to teach ballroom hold, I'd get them becket, and tell them to face across.  The hand they are holding is the one they put behind their partner's back, and the one they come back to holding after the swing.  

Ending the swing.  I think at the beginning of the evening, and maybe with refreshers through the night, you should get them becket, and have them swing their P, and end where they began.  Call this relative position swung position.  Whichever hand you are giving to your partner, always give that hand to those you swing.  If switching roles each dance, be careful to remember which hand you will give after the swing.

First and second corner could be any pairs within the hands four.  If you start proper you have one set, swap the ones you have another set, then swing your N and have yet another.  They can be sane role or opposite, but these positions, note again, positions not people, are constant and neutral.  

In ECD we use ones and twos much more frequently than current contra typically does and ECD also makes extensive use of corners.  It's something to learn, but not especially confusing.  If you wanted you could call them alpha and beta corners, but you'd lose the connection to contra corners.  I kinda think I might start the night with a contra corners triplet.  Really trains you to look right for a first corner, left for a second corner when facing across.  When teaching a bunch of new dancers, you could first teach ones and twos and have them swing and DSD in turn.  Then teach corners and have them allemande and DSD in turn.  Then tell the number one first corner to raise a hand.  Number two second corner to clap, etc, so they get used to having two roles.  Have them swing the neighbor and do it all again.  There might be even more expedient ways.  

I would love to hear from those who have danced Morris or other single gender sets in hands four whether they use numbered corners or some other designation.

Best,
Andrea N.



Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask

On Jun 1, 2015, at 11:03 PM, Amy Carroll via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

I'm feeling really thick in the head in reading these discussion thread.  How do you explain to the dancers who is a first corner and who is second corner. 

How do you explain swinging and who should end in which spot?


Isn't 1st corner and 2nd corner the way you are using them just another substitute for gents/ladies; jets/rubies; etc etc etc?


Wouldn't new dancers be confused about being a #1 or #2 couple but also a 1st or 2nd corner at the same time?

This seems super confusing to newer dancers, but I haven't seen the program you called.


I'd love to know more.  It's very intriguing.


Amy Carroll


On June 1, 2015 at 7:27 PM Ron Blechner via Callers <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:


Jim,

I think this approach is great for adding more dances with choice. ...
but at some point, people want advanced dances and/or medleys, and
limiting the move-set I don't find an acceptable compromise.

-Ron

On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 7:22 PM, Jim Hemphill <arcadian35@gmail.com> wrote:
> Proper Dance, gender free yet not too simple
> A1 Neighbor allemande left 1 1/2
> 1st corners allemande right 1 1/2
> A2 Scoop your partner as you go by, star promenade then butterfly
> 2nd corners swing in the center, then separate
> B1 Partner balance and swing
> B2 Take hands in a ring, balance and petranella
> Couple 2 swing in the center, end facing up
>
> Dances can have variety and challenges without gender reference. In this
> dance, as long as you make clear in the teaching that after the neighbor
> allemande left 1 1/2 if you are facing in, you are a 1st corner so you
> allemande right, if facing out you are a 2nd corner, get ready to be scooped
> you can end the swings any way you want.
>
> Ron, you are certainly right that not all dances can be easily taught in
> this manner, but in no way are all of these type of dances simple. I
> struggled with translating a "choose your noun" for ladies or gents because
> that is how I learned and think about the dance roles. The translation
> process adds a layer of complexity for me. I am just offering a different
> approach that works for me.
>
> Thanks
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers
> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> RE: Dave:
>>
>> Clockwise / counterclockwise - too wordy, and some people have trouble
>> with this regardless.
>>
>> Hey: What about on the left diagonal? Along the set?
>>
>> I also really don't like the blaming of the dance if it's not 100%
>> intuitive. Plenty of dances flow great but have a counter-intuitive
>> element. Restricting dances to those without counter-intuitive moves
>> is basically saying, "Sorry, if we want to be genderfree, we need to
>> put a cap on how difficult a dance is. Sorry genderfree dancers, you
>> aren't allowed to dance too advanced." That's a big problem.
>>
>> Rollaways can *not* be handled from left to right - who does the
>> rolling is not indicated at all!
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Dave Casserly
>> <david.j.casserly@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Also with regard to Ron's questions, numbers 2 and 3 (who-leads-whom and
>> > who-walks-forward) can be handled by using the terms "clockwise" and
>> > "counterclockwise." As to 4 (who passes whom for a hey), I agree with
>> > Bob
>> > that if the dance is good, it should be obvious, but even if not, "pass
>> > left
>> > shoulders in the middle for a hey for four" can only be interpreted one
>> > way,
>> > so that fixes the issue of referring to roles. Roll-aways can be
>> > handled
>> > with "roll away from the left to the right" or "roll away from the right
>> > to
>> > the left."
>> >
>> > I'm not saying that it's perfect, but it is actually quite doable to
>> > call a
>> > dance without referring to roles at all, even without resorting to first
>> > or
>> > second corners.
>> >
>> > Perry asked for an example of a dance with global terminology used.
>> > Here's
>> > one (just picking a common, typical dance):
>> >
>> > Square Affair, by Becky Hill
>> >
>> > A1 Long Lines, 1st corners chain (or just say "chain" if you're dealing
>> > with
>> > experienced dancers and don't want to use the corners terminology)
>> > A2 Balance and pull by partner, pull by neighbor, balance and pull by
>> > partner, pull by neighbor
>> > B1 New neighbors balance and swing
>> > B2 Circle 3/4, partner swing
>> >
>> > Perry, you also mentioned that you are trying to figure out how global
>> > terminology would work for proper dances. I have always called proper
>> > dances using global terminology without even thinking about it. For
>> > Chorus
>> > Jig, for instance, why would you ever need to use the term "gent" or
>> > "lady"?
>> > Down the outside, back, down the middle, back and neighbor
>> > around-the-waist
>> > turn, 1s turn contra corners, 1s balance and swing. Nothing that any
>> > particular role does that the other role isn't doing at the same time.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Bob Morgan via Callers
>> > <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> With regard to Ron's questions
>> >>
>> >> 1. Would be easily covered by 1st or 2nd corners walk forward to a wave
>> >>
>> >> 2. Again can be done with reference to corners
>> >>
>> >> 3. Not so familiar with these.
>> >>
>> >> 4. You usually only need an obvious first pass person so not an issue I
>> >> think
>> >>
>> >> 5. If you're facing out you turn, if you're facing across you walk is
>> >> how
>> >> I call it anyway
>> >>
>> >> Bob
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 5:09 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers
>> >> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Andrea, how would you handle the following:
>> >>>
>> >>> 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip
>> >>> to
>> >>> Lambertville, et all?
>> >>>
>> >>> 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star?
>> >>>
>> >>> 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal
>> >>> Pushers,
>> >>> Jurassic Redheads, etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey.
>> >>>
>> >>> 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate?
>> >>>
>> >>> 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't
>> >>> mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour?
>> >>> Rollaways?
>> >>>
>> >>> None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated.
>> >>>
>> >>> Ron
>> >>>
>> >>> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers"
>> >>> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at
>> >>>> Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if
>> >>>> used,
>> >>>> everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only
>> >>>> the most
>> >>>> unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible
>> >>>> for same
>> >>>> role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without
>> >>>> reference to
>> >>>> gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for
>> >>>> example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those
>> >>>> standing in
>> >>>> those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second
>> >>>> corners to
>> >>>> refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions.
>> >>>> But
>> >>>> since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this
>> >>>> seems
>> >>>> unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some
>> >>>> folks are
>> >>>> trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before
>> >>>> now.
>> >>>> Cheers,
>> >>>> Andrea
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers
>> >>>> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment
>> >>>> in
>> >>>> gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St.
>> >>>> Louis
>> >>>> using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment
>> >>>> was a
>> >>>> great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings
>> >>>> dance.
>> >>>> At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several
>> >>>> dancers, some
>> >>>> were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual
>> >>>> about
>> >>>> the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were
>> >>>> more
>> >>>> dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual.
>> >>>> No one
>> >>>> I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program,
>> >>>> but
>> >>>> it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only
>> >>>> way to
>> >>>> call gender free.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email,
>> >>>> arcadian35@gmail.com.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks,
>> >>>> Jim Hemphill
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Callers mailing list
>> >>>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>> Callers mailing list
>> >>>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Callers mailing list
>> >>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > David Casserly
>> > (cell) 781 258-2761
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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