Could someone please explain to me why the word gyp*** is considered a
racial slur. I note that the body that represents gyp***s in the USA
calls itself the Gypsy Council USA and in the UK it is the Gypsy
Council. This is the term they have chosen to represent their ethnicity
and they seem to be proud of it. Who are we to disagree?
Michael Barraclough
http://michaelbarraclough.com
On 03/14/2018 01:33 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:
> I think having a word that sounds similar is an asset, not a
> liability. I have used look-see quite successfully. In years, few
> will know that a "look-see" used to be called as a G... I have also
> used Walk 'round with no problem.
>
> My initial attempt was Hipsy, but Linda Leslie quickly, and prudently
> discouraged such usage.
>
> Rich
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 4:25 PM, Martha Wild via Callers
> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>
> I don’t see that if you substitute a term that ends with a long e
> it should be nixed just for that reason. OK, maybe kipsy might be
> considered just a euphemism. But "Look-see", as described by Susan
> Michaels, has the virtue of involving the fact that you are
> looking at the other person, and seeing them. Why shouldn’t we
> choose a term that’s easier to substitute and remember to use like
> “Look-see” instead of the bland, cold, bulky, impossible to
> shorten, “right shoulder round” (or left shoulder round).
> Martha
>
> > On Mar 14, 2018, at 1:11 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers
> <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
> >
> > I appreciate the point that several have made that a term that
> sounds just like gypsy isn't a reasonable substitute. Fair
> enough. The search continues...
> >
> > Kalia in Sebastopol
> > _______________________________________________
> > List Name: Callers mailing list
> > List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> <mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> > Archives:
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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Chris Page <chriscpage(a)gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] More substitute terms for the g-word
To: Michael Barraclough <michael(a)michaelbarraclough.com>
And could we please do this under a separate thread so it doesn’t drown out
the original question?
-Chris Page
San Diego
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:44 PM Michael Barraclough via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Could someone please explain to me why the word gyp*** is considered a
> racial slur. I note that the body that represents gyp***s in the USA calls
> itself the Gypsy Council USA and in the UK it is the Gypsy Council. This is
> the term they have chosen to represent their ethnicity and they seem to be
> proud of it. Who are we to disagree?
>
> Michael Barraclough
> http://michaelbarraclough.com
>
>
> On 03/14/2018 01:33 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:
>
> I think having a word that sounds similar is an asset, not a liability. I
> have used look-see quite successfully. In years, few will know that a
> "look-see" used to be called as a G... I have also used Walk 'round with
> no problem.
>
> My initial attempt was Hipsy, but Linda Leslie quickly, and prudently
> discouraged such usage.
>
> Rich
>
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 4:25 PM, Martha Wild via Callers <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> I don’t see that if you substitute a term that ends with a long e it
>> should be nixed just for that reason. OK, maybe kipsy might be considered
>> just a euphemism. But "Look-see", as described by Susan Michaels, has the
>> virtue of involving the fact that you are looking at the other person, and
>> seeing them. Why shouldn’t we choose a term that’s easier to substitute and
>> remember to use like “Look-see” instead of the bland, cold, bulky,
>> impossible to shorten, “right shoulder round” (or left shoulder round).
>> Martha
>>
>> > On Mar 14, 2018, at 1:11 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers <
>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > I appreciate the point that several have made that a term that sounds
>> just like gypsy isn't a reasonable substitute. Fair enough. The search
>> continues...
>> >
>> > Kalia in Sebastopol
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > List Name: Callers mailing list
>> > List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> List Name: Callers mailing list
>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
Yeah, except we keep trying different terms here in San Diego, as well as having callers who havent changed it, so there is no one word to put on the map here yet.
> On Mar 14, 2018, at 12:10 PM, Linda S. Mrosko via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Perhaps someone, not me, should draw up a map of the term used in place of "gypsy" in the various parts of the country so traveling callers will know what to use if they call there. The map can also be handed out to traveling dancers to prepare them in advance.
>
> --
> Looking forward,
>
> Linda S. Mrosko
> 102 Mitchell Drive
> Temple, Texas 76501
> (903) 292-3713 (Cell)
> (903) 603-9955 (Skype)
> contradancetx.com <http://www.contradancetx.com/>
> www.zazzle.com/fuzzycozy* <http://www.zazzle.com/fuzzycozy*> (Dance buttons, t-shirts, & more)
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
Re: More substitute terms for the g-word
I have used the term "Romanesque" for the move - its a sloppy miss-use of
the word "Roman" but it has the Roma kernel in it. And most people
recognise that it is a word for something.
Cheers,
Eric Limbach
Pocatello, ID
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 2:11 PM, <callers-request(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Martha Wild)
> 2. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Chip Hedler)
> 3. Re: Programming a Dance (Jean Gibson-Gorrindo)
> 4. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Donna Hunt)
> 5. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Yoyo Zhou)
> 6. Re: Programming a Dance (Dugan Murphy)
> 7. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Russell Frank)
> 8. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Elizabeth Szekeres)
> 9. Re: Programming a Dance (Bob Peterson)
> 10. Re: Programming a Dance (Mary Collins)
> 11. Re: Programming a Dance (Mary Collins)
> 12. Re: Programming a Dance (Linda S. Mrosko)
> 13. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Linda S. Mrosko)
> 14. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Cara Sawyer)
> 15. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Andrea Nettleton)
> 16. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Bob Hofkin)
> 17. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Angela DeCarlis)
> 18. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Don Veino)
> 19. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Cheryl Joyal)
> 20. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Amy Wimmer)
> 21. Re: More substitute terms for the g-word (Linda S. Mrosko)
> 22. More substitute terms for the g-word (Kalia Kliban)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2018 13:07:54 -0700
> From: Martha Wild <mawild(a)sbcglobal.net>
> To: John W Gintell <john(a)gintell.org>
> Cc: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com>, Caller's discussion list
> <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] More substitute terms for the g-word
> Message-ID: <8BC4AEB3-D1F9-45AC-AC8F-E27E00719F80(a)sbcglobal.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I don?t think right shoulder round is going to make the grade. It?s
> descriptive, certainly, but it is long and unwieldy and can?t be easily
> shortened to anything recognizable as you eliminate calls in the dance. So,
> I?m sorry, but I?m not going to be using it.
> Martha
>
> > On Mar 13, 2018, at 12:53 PM, John W Gintell via Callers <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > I think it would be best if only one term is used by callers at all
> dances. I think this quite important for beginners (not necessarily just
> the first time) who face enough confusion learning the terminology. One of
> the reasons why beginners don?t return is that it is too confusing.
> >
> > And I too like hearing right shoulder round because it is descriptive.
> >
> >> On Mar 13, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Perry Shafran via Callers <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I happen to *like* right shoulder round and have liked it ever since
> three callers at a dance event used it and it went rather flawlessly. I
> like the fact that it is actually descriptive in what you're doing. I
> think that the more we try to invent made-up words to try to make it sound
> fun and whimsey, the more we are likely to upset dancers who don't like
> that we're changing terms as it is. It may *sound* like a boring
> descriptor, but I feel my job as a caller is to describe the move and let
> the dancer decide what the mood is going to be for that individual dancer,
> based on their own feelings and their own connection to the music. So I
> plan to stick with "right shoulder round".
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > List Name: Callers mailing list
> > List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> > Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
>
I first heard Dugan Murphy use “right shoulder round” and it worked well. I have adopted it and it is well received and does work well for me calling wise
Cheryl Joyal
630-667-3284
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 14, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Angela DeCarlis via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Quick note to all: while "Right Shoulder 'Round" seems like a mouthful at four syllables, the words are easily spoken in two beats of music (or two and a half depending how you count). It takes only half a beat more to say than common moves like "Balance and Swing" or "Allemande Left," and takes exactly the same amount of time to say as "Go Forward and Back." Common phrases like "With Your Neighbor Dosido" take nearly twice as long to say.
So before you judge a phrase as unwieldy, give it a few test runs by yourself, to a beat or to recorded music. :)
Angela
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 10:53 AM Bob Hofkin via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Andrea,
>
> The discussions make it clear that: (1) there is a need to use
> terminology other than "gypsy," at least in some venues, and (2) there
> is no generally-agreed substitute term.
>
> A lot of callers see that as an impediment to clear and concise
> teaching/calling. I have certainly experienced confusion and annoyance
> as a dancer. I believe that the folk process will provide a solution,
> but I appreciate the efforts to accelerate what could otherwise take
> many years to resolve.
>
> I appreciate the reports of what different callers are trying and their
> degree of success. At the same time, it makes a lot of sense to avoid
> rehashing the same arguments, as you suggest. Right now, we're in an
> empirical phase--trial and error--and rapid dissemination of results
> seems like the way to go. If that process suggests a few good
> candidates, it might be time to debate their merits.
>
> Bob
>
> On 3/14/2018 03:31, Andrea Nettleton via Callers wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > Here we are once more, sharing our likes and dislikes, our preferred term (I’ve shared and still like whimsy, but look-see got my attention) of the moment. But why are we circling this wagon again? Though everyone is polite, and thankfully we haven’t begun to rehash whether gypsy is a slur or not, I also see no fresh approach, no new insight, to clarify for one and all a single, simple, right answer. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not sure there is one. But I’m positive we won’t get there by having more of the same back and forth we’ve already had. While I R eyelemande my neighbor, you’re going to R shoulder round yours, and as far as I can tell, that’s where we are and will be. Could we please maybe back away from the specifics a bit, and see if we can generate a new way of framing the debate? And if we can’t, just let the experiment continue without rehashing the already well trodden ground?
> > Thanks,
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Mar 13, 2018, at 11:53 PM, Cara Sawyer via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Jo Mortland of the Chicago Barn Dance group here came up with Dipsy. Nice and silly and sounds similar enough it requires no explanation. Sort of like Kipsy!
> >>
> >> Guess what they say about great minds is true!
> >>
> >> Sent using two thumbs
> >>
> >>> On Mar 13, 2018, at 14:41, Perry Shafran via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I happen to *like* right shoulder round and have liked it ever since three callers at a dance event used it and it went rather flawlessly. I like the fact that it is actually descriptive in what you're doing. I think that the more we try to invent made-up words to try to make it sound fun and whimsey, the more we are likely to upset dancers who don't like that we're changing terms as it is. It may *sound* like a boring descriptor, but I feel my job as a caller is to describe the move and let the dancer decide what the mood is going to be for that individual dancer, based on their own feelings and their own connection to the music. So I plan to stick with "right shoulder round".
> >>>
> >>> Perry
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: Martha Wild via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
> >>> To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 2:03 PM
> >>> Subject: [Callers] More substitute terms for the g-word
> >>>
> >>> Interesting discussion on the Portland Country Dance Community Facebook page. Lots of great suggestions. A lot of people really don’t like “right shoulder round” (I’m one of them). I tried one of their suggestions last night - Kipsey - and it worked amazingly well. Easy to say, particularly when you are cutting down the calling to one word (what do you do with right shoulder round? shoulder? Ick.) And everyone can hear the similarity and knows what to do. I had tried spiral for a while and people just seemed confused. The other suggestion that I noticed today was from Susan Michaels - “look-see” That has the virtue of a similar rhyming two syllable call, and it’s upbeat and fun and has emphasis on facing the other person. Check out the discussion. https://www.facebook.com/groups/62950211264/permalink/10155943260651265/
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> List Name: Callers mailing list
> >>> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
>
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For what it's worth, I danced a "right shoulder 'round" (so far it's what
I've been using) with someone who remarked, "I really dislike that term. It
makes me think of a side of beef." OOF! Now that's all I can think of when
I hear the term.
I like "swoop." This is the first time I've heard that proposed. It's
short, sweet and descriptive. I may give that a test whirl. I can imagine
the wings coming out in our community.
I've heard "pixie" and don't care for it. It seems too cute, too close to
gypsy, and isn't descriptive. I know many terms are not descriptive, but
this doesn't have anything going for it, in my book, except it's short and
easy to say.
I appreciate knowing what has worked in other communities, and as long as
the conversation stays constructive and informative I am all for it.
-Amy
On Mar 14, 2018 9:04 AM, "Don Veino via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I've successfully tried both Glance (around) and Swoop (around) with
dancers. Several have told me they really liked Swoop and thought it was
the best alternative they've heard so far (and I've seen folks having fun
making "wings" on the floor as they do it).
A caution on terms that explicitly use "eye" in them: we have a regular
dancer who is blind and that person and their friends are strongly offended
by those terms. As eye locking is styling and not the essential motion,
it's not necessary to the call.
Also, on some of these sound-alike terms... if I were to call you a
"plucking gerk" would you not be offended just the same? I submit for the
same reason that a replacement term we settle on should not sound like the
original term we're trying to replace. Similar metrics, sure - but not a
minor tweak of the original sound. For this reason I've never tried making
"Glance" into "Glancey."
On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 10:52 AM, Bob Hofkin via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> I appreciate the reports of what different callers are trying and their
> degree of success. At the same time, it makes a lot of sense to avoid
> rehashing the same arguments, as you suggest. Right now, we're in an
> empirical phase--trial and error--and rapid dissemination of results seems
> like the way to go. If that process suggests a few good candidates, it
> might be time to debate their merits.
>
> Bob
>
> <https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/>
>
[snip]
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Being in charge of a monthly "open band open mic dance," I rarely prepare
-- but I usually have at least a couple of dances in mind, just in case. I
never know if another caller will show up or if a room full of newcomers
will show up. It's a small venue and the regular dancers are forgiving.
For a regular dance, I do like to have a program and start with at least a
sketch of a plan a week in advance. If it's a band I haven't worked with,
,I try to have a plan to them at least a week ahead of the dance. For our
regular musicians, all they want to know is where the Balances are, are
there any Do-Si-Dos (usually a jig), Down the Hall & Back or Hey, and
whether I'm using a Chestnut with its own tune.
On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 12:58 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> I am curious how much time you all plan programming a dance before
> arriving at a venue. If you do not preprogram, what is your approach for
> on the fly programming?
> Rich Sbardella
> Stafford, CT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
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>
>
--
*Looking forward,Linda S. Mrosko*
*102 Mitchell Drive*
*Temple, Texas 76501*
*(903) 292-3713 (Cell)*
*(903) 603-9955 (Skype)*
*contradancetx.com <http://www.contradancetx.com>*
*www.zazzle.com/fuzzycozy* <http://www.zazzle.com/fuzzycozy*> (Dance
buttons, t-shirts, & more)*
I should addend my previous response to say I approach a dance preparation
as I do a horse show. That's how my mind works. There is a plan and steps
to it.
Mary
On Mar 13, 2018 6:15 PM, "Mary Collins" <nativedae(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I usually start thinking about the program as soon as I book. Then as far
out as two weeks I pull and practice dances, determine suitable music,
refine a day or two before and then once at the dance change the whole
program. Lol. Not really but once I get there I end up changing order or
some dances. I've been pulling my similar yet substituting dances itn
advance lately too.
On Mar 13, 2018 6:04 PM, "Bob Peterson via Callers" <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> As a new caller I spend way too many hours preparing. I used to start
> weeks in advance, just so I could read all the choreography books I have.
> Now I’m down to 1 or 2 weeks. LOL. Where I’m spending most of my time
> nowadays is developing a sense of “story” and “biorhythm” to the program,
> and not just a logical progression of complexity. I look forward to getting
> it down to an hour!
>
> By now I have been through my library enough and called enough that I have
> a couple special folders of fallback easy/fun/low-turnout dances to rely on
> when I need them. Having fallbacks makes programming simpler (thus faster)
> so I don’t need an absurd flowchart. (Yes, I tried that once.)
>
> On Mar 13, 2018, at 17:28, Jean Gibson-Gorrindo via Callers <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> My calling took a big leap forward when I started paying more attention to
> what I would say during the walk-thru, and practicing saying it out loud as
> concisely as possible (Lisa Greenleaf influence!).
>
>
> I do this as well. Saying the teaching aloud, alone, helps me test and
> pare the words down. Walking a couple positions as well helps me aware of
> the dancer perspectives as well.
>
> \Bob Peterson
> http://contracorner.com/caller/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> List Name: Callers mailing list
> List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
>
>
I like to have a program of dances selected and laid out for my gigs.
Of course I know that sometimes the prepared program has to be
departed from, or completely replaced, but I like to at least start from
the point of having a prepared program.
For a typical contra dance I will spend an hour or so selecting
dances and getting them in order. This may be a bit longer if I'm
trying any new dances that need to be written up. Then I always
practice all of the dances, even old familiar ones and especially any
new ones. I practice both the walk-through and calling to music. This
usually takes an hour or so as well. I usually do the preparation a day
or two before the day of the dance. Extra time, and more advanced
planning, may be needed if I'm coordinating with the band on any of the
dances.
The process is similar for English dances, but often takes more
time. It also needs to be done well in advance so that the band can be
informed of the dances.
Jonathan
-----
Jonathan Sivier
Caller of Contra, Square, English and Early American Dances
jsivier AT illinois DOT edu
Dance Page: http://www.sivier.me/dance_leader.html
-----
Q: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
A: It depends on what dance you call!
On 3/13/2018 12:58 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers wrote:
> I am curious how much time you all plan programming a dance before
> arriving at a venue. If you do not preprogram, what is your approach
> for on the fly programming?
> Rich Sbardella
> Stafford, CT
I agree, but the problem is more serious than “it’s just too close to gypsy”. If we’re not going to use “gypsy” because it’s an ethnic slur, then we have to avoid obvious code words for the ethnic slur. There’s a long history of slightly altering socially unacceptable race and ethnic slurs, and pretending that this makes it all right. It doesn’t make it all right, period.
The fact that we really don’t have any ill intent is irrelevant; we didn’t have any ill intent when we were using the word gypsy either.
> On Mar 13, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Yoyo Zhou via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 1:07 PM, Martha Wild via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
> I don’t think right shoulder round is going to make the grade. It’s descriptive, certainly, but it is long and unwieldy and can’t be easily shortened to anything recognizable as you eliminate calls in the dance. So, I’m sorry, but I’m not going to be using it.
>
> Personally, I use "right shoulder turn" in teaching, and when prompting, I shorten it to "right shoulder". This is already shorter than "right allemande", which I don't think can get any shorter.
>
> Also personally, I would find it hard not to cringe when I hear "kipsie" (and, not being from New York, I would have never made the Poughkeepsie connection without the help of this list). I feel similarly about "jets" as a dance role replacement term. It's just a little too close and reminds you too much of what you're trying to avoid.
>
> How dancers respond to new terms is shaped by their attitudes, which can range from "I don't want this to change" to "I think this needed changing but the new thing is awkward" to "I like the new thing" to "I don't care either way" to "I'm new, what is this?" So different things may work for different crowds, though you'll hear a lot of feedback from a few vocal dancers, whereas most dancers I think are closest to feeling "I don't care either way". But the whole reason we're on this topic is that enough dancers want it to change.
>
> Yoyo Zhou
>
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