My understanding is that Lynn adapted Ron Beeson's dance, Apple Pie Quadrille, by changing B2 into a can't-fail circle progression from a "Devil's Backbone" progression.
I'm going to guess that Nils called it at a dance and somebody misattributed the dance to him and got the name wrong.
Here's the notation Ridge Kennedy posted for Apple Pie Quadrille on the trad-dance-callers list:
APPLE PIE QUADRILLE
Ron Beeson (via Ridge Kennedy)
Four Facing Four
Called by Kathy Anderson at Buffalo gap 2002
Ask for lively music that's a bit silly to suit the dance.
A-1 Lines of Four, Forward and Back
(Reminder - this is original direction!) (8)
Center Four (dancers in the middle of each line of four):
Star Right Once Around (8)
A-2 Partners Allemande Left Once and a Half (8)
Ends (Original ends of each line of four, now Center Four)
Star Right Once Around (8)
B-1 Partners balance and swing (16)
B-2 "End Man" (Man on left end of line):Lead back over left shoulder to
invert line. Lead around the *other* end of the other line and all
face original direction and a new line of four. (16)
Notes: Tricky Part: Leading the line back and around is counter-intuitive.
End man starts turning in opposite direction that his line is progressing.
Original dance:
A-1 Lines forward and back (8) All do sa do opposite dancer (8)
A-2 Centre four star right (8) All allemande left with partner x 3/2 (8)
B-1 New centre four star right (8) All swing partners (8)
B-2 Circle left all eight once round (16)
C-1 The left hand man casts left taking his line around the other line
to face the next line (16)
-- Alan
On 5/29/2019 5:36 PM, Liz Burkhart via Callers wrote:
I have found two identical dances. First I collected Coconut Cream Puff by Nils Fredland, then I lost the card, and in the process of looking for it online, discovered Coconut Cream Pie by Lynn Ackerson. It is the same dance:
4 Facing 4
A1 Lines of 4 go forward and back
middles star R once
A2 Partner allemande L 1 1/2
new middles star R once
B1 Partner balance & swing
B2 All 8 circle L 1/2 (4 places)
Balance ring, partner California twirl
So who really wrote it? Does anyone know why there are two names and two choreographers attributed?
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Hi All,
In the first video link in Callers Box, one dancer is doing an interesting addition at A2b:
A2 Partner allemande L 1 1/2;
New middles star R once WHILE new ends Neighbor swing.
Cheers, Bill
Thank you! That sure does look like the same dance except B2 (or in the
original, C1!)
On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 6:36 PM <callers-request(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Coconut Cream Puff vs Pie + choreographer? (Liz Burkhart)
> 2. Re: Coconut Cream Puff vs Pie + choreographer? (Winston, Alan P.)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 20:36:43 -0400
> From: Liz Burkhart <burkhart.liz(a)gmail.com>
> To: callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> Subject: [Callers] Coconut Cream Puff vs Pie + choreographer?
> Message-ID:
> <CAEQ=jxCz=
> 2syXFyoF6bE8BPrm2NcQnbVHomdKD3T+fmztR8qtg(a)mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I have found two identical dances. First I collected Coconut Cream Puff by
> Nils Fredland, then I lost the card, and in the process of looking for it
> online, discovered Coconut Cream Pie by Lynn Ackerson. It is the same
> dance:
>
> 4 Facing 4
> A1 Lines of 4 go forward and back
> middles star R once
> A2 Partner allemande L 1 1/2
> new middles star R once
> B1 Partner balance & swing
> B2 All 8 circle L 1/2 (4 places)
> Balance ring, partner California twirl
>
>
> So who really wrote it? Does anyone know why there are two names and two
> choreographers attributed?
>
I have found two identical dances. First I collected Coconut Cream Puff by
Nils Fredland, then I lost the card, and in the process of looking for it
online, discovered Coconut Cream Pie by Lynn Ackerson. It is the same dance:
4 Facing 4
A1 Lines of 4 go forward and back
middles star R once
A2 Partner allemande L 1 1/2
new middles star R once
B1 Partner balance & swing
B2 All 8 circle L 1/2 (4 places)
Balance ring, partner California twirl
So who really wrote it? Does anyone know why there are two names and two
choreographers attributed?
Michael Dyck and my contra dance database project, the Caller's Box,
http://www.ibiblio.org/contradance/thecallersbox/
now includes links for about 1,900 dances to about 8,000 youtube videos.
They're currently unsorted, but hopefully after a few random clicks on
the currently 115 identified videos of Gene Hubert's "Butter",
there'll be an interesting one.
-Chris Page
San Diego, CA
In Otter Creek Books, in Middlebury VT, the other day I picked up a little book called “Prompting: How to do it”, by John M. Schell, “One of Boston’s leading prompters”. It “Contains the figures of all modern dances in common use, and how to call them”. It was published by Carl Fisher Inc (whom I think of as a music publisher) in 1890.
It contains instructions for numerous multi-part quadrilles (Plain, Lancers, Caledonian, Double Lancers, Saratoga Lancers, etc), and a couple of individual square dances. It also has about 120 contra dances, all in proper formation and almost all described as duple (many seem as though they could just as well be done improper). The instructions say they are for six-couple sets. Every contra is to be followed by “All forward (4); turn partners (4); all promenade around the hall.” (I interpret this as forward and back, swing partner, promenade.). The ones that have familiar names (Petronella, Money Musk, Hull’s Victory, Vinton’s Hornpipe etc) have a family resemblance to the dances that were codified by Ralph Page and others or appear e.g. in Zesty Contras, but often aren't quite the same.
This book was apparently one of Ralph Page’s main sources, and he felt free to update them some as he adapted them. in 1995, in connection with the 8th Ralph Page Legacy weekend at UNH, Tony Parkes wrote: "In preparing for this session, I reread Ralph's account of his early years as a caller ("One More Couple: Some Memories of 30 Years of Calling." Northern Junket, vol. 6 no. 12 and vol. 7 no. 1. February and May 1960) and discovered that Ralph learned to call with the aid of two different books: Prompting: How To Do It by John M. Schell (1890) and The Prompter’s Handbook, edited by J.A. French (1893)".
Here is some of the advice from the first few pages of the book. It looks like the task and role of the prompter/caller have not changed very much in 129 years:
—————————————————
Be a gentleman always; many questions will be asked and many minds to please. Answer each in a pleasant manner in every instance.
Should any complain of the tempo adapted by the orchestra…. inform such that you are playing according to the instructions of the floor manager, to whom you pleasantly refer them, adding that you will willingly change it is his wish…..In the case of a new party, or no instructions regarding tempo, watch the effect of the music, and change it if it seems too fast or too slow.
Grand Right and Left: It is well to make this call “Right hand to partner, grand right and left”.
Ladies’ Chain (8 bars): Danced by opposite couples at same time. Opposite ladies cross, give right hand in passing, join left hand with opposite gent, and turn half around. (Before the invention of the courtesy turn — perhaps as a flourish, as suggested recently on this list-serv).
The Voice: Do not strain the voice under any circumstances; the effect is injurious, and will soon render it useless. A few lessons in elocution, for the purpose of learning to throw out the voice, as in singing, will prove money well invested.
Commit to memory one set of figures of a quadrille, for example, and call aloud and with the music until perfectly learned and the calls exactly in time; then take up the next. The first attempts are nervous times at best, so that all calls should be perfectly committed in the order they are to come, leaving nothing to memorandums or books before entering the hall. Practice with the music until the calls are thoroughly mastered on time, and distinct. (This reminds me of a square calling workshop I attended at Augusta in 1990 taught by Larry Edelman, in which we were forbidden to have dance cards in our hands while calling — though we could use them in teaching.)
Figures requiring two calls, such as right and left etc, give the first call on the eighth bar (i.e. counts 15 and 16), the last on the fourth (i.e. counts 7 and 8). Invariably finish calling before the strain begins, otherwise the dancers will be behind, which detracts from their pleasure and the general effect.
``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Richard Hopkins
Middlebury, VT
850-544-7614
hopkinsrs(a)comcast.net
The forearm turn works well in MWSD because men wear long-sleeved shirts. Don’t know about you, but with short sleeved Ts typically worn by men in contra dancing, I’d hate to get a load of sweat on my arm , especially up and down the line with the all-too-frequent gents (or larks) allemand left once and a half.
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 21, 2019, at 4:07 PM, callers-request(a)lists.sharedweight.net wrote:
>
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Richard Fischer)
> 2. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Rich Sbardella)
> 3. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Don Veino)
> 4. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Rich Sbardella)
> 5. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Erik Hoffman)
> 6. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Andrea Nettleton)
> 7. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney)
> 8. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Folk Dance)
> 9. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney)
> 10. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (Andrea Nettleton)
> 11. Re: Hand Turns & Safety (John Sweeney)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 18:58:41 -0400
> From: Richard Fischer <richardallenfischer(a)verizon.net>
> To: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net>
> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety
> Message-ID: <52479A7C-5587-493A-8B69-F85F8519BE71(a)verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Andrea, could you describe the forearm allemande? I don't think I've seen it and can't quite picture it. Or maybe send a link to a video that shows it?
>
> Of possible interest to some, one of the scenes portrayed on the Shield of Achilles in the Iliad shows youths and maidens dancing, "holding their hands on one another's wrists."
>
> With best wishes,
>
> Richard Fischer
> Princeton, NJ
>
>> On May 18, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I?m going to add a controversial note. I also loathe the many poor allemandes I get, unweighted, awkward handed, arm pulled in like a chicken wing, what have you. As a MWSD, I have come to love the forearm allemande for arm turns. Callerlab made the switch some years ago, and at first I was like, wut??? But it?s a position which save everyone?s hands and wrists, and even shoulders, is intrinsically very stable, and makes the chicken wing almost impossible. I started using it for dances with revolving doors, as a dancer, because those turns are so brief and necessarily tight and need a quick strong connection. I was so pleased I began using them elsewhere. People generally go along with it. I have been wishing Contra could just switch to this for all allemandes. I know it would be an uphill struggle to get everyone on board. But I had to put it out there.
>>
>> Currently I still teach an old fashioned allemande. I demonstrate and emphasize meaty parts of the thumb together, fingers curled around the base of the opposite?s thumb, flat wrist. And I always add that the thumb itself is an injurious device which lands at a tender spot if depressed, so leave it loose. Then I demonstrate how to produce enough connection to make a 2 person unit that turns on a post. I?m sure everyone on this list has similar teaches.
>> If teaching this allemande was ever going to work, it would have by now. I suspect it?s failure as a hold is why callerlab opted for the forearm hold instead.
>> My 2c,
>> Andrea N
>> Arlington VA
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On May 17, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> John Sweeny below hoped we callers would teach more about hand turns and the like.
>>>
>>> I?ve been thinking on this for quite a while. Years ago I had a discussion with Brad Foster. We both lamented the loss of the allemande with mildly interlocking thumbs to the modern overprotective thumb against the side of the palm allemande. At that time I think I was still in Santa Barbara, thus it must have been pre 1994. I wrote an article for our dance rag called, ?If Allemande Left, Where?d Allemande Go??
>>>
>>> I talked about what I do when someone grips my hand?and I think all of us should remove that word, ?grip? from our caller?s vocabulary?
>>>
>>> But the most important thing I discussed is:
>>> Our Wrist is Strongest When It?s Straight
>>> Our Fingers are Strongest When Curved
>>> Thus, however one does an allemande, it should be a hook, with curved fingers and a straight wrist.
>>>
>>> Lately I?ve seen teachers promote the straight fingers, bent wrist, and flat palm method. The almost always makes one person?s wrist uncomfortable. Not as bad as when someone draws the others hand into that almost-Aikido-put-them-on-the-ground position, but usually quite uncomfortable.
>>>
>>> Thus I hope most of us learn the curved fingers, straight wrist, no grip, and, no thumb clamping allemande, ECD hand turn, two hand turn type hand connections.
>>>
>>> ~Erik Hoffman,
>>> Oakland, CA
>>>
>>> From: Callers <callers-bounces(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net>> On Behalf Of John Sweeney via Callers
>>> Sent: Friday, May 17, 2019 2:09 PM
>>> To: 'Caller's discussion list' <callers(a)sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@sharedweight.net>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Name that Dance
>>>
>>> Hi Rich,
>>> I would just call it a ?Big Set Mixer?. It is a slight variation of the one in the Community Dances Manual. Callers just make up a 32 bar sequence that works for their dancers.
>>>
>>> While it is a good example of all ages having fun together, I really wish callers would teach the dancers just a tiny bit about how to do better hand/arm turns and swings :-)
>>>
>>> Happy dancing,
>>> John
>>>
>>> John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com <mailto:john@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
>>> http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html <http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html> for Live Music Ceilidhs
>>> http://www.contrafusion.co.uk <http://www.contrafusion.co.uk/> for Dancing in Kent
>>> http://www.modernjive.com <http://www.modernjive.com/> for Modern Jive DVDs
>>>
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>
The Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold is NOT suitable for all moves!
Waves are unquestionably much better with the standard contra Elbows-Down Palm-to-Palm hand holds. As are Swing Thrus. As Callerlab says, “All hands are joined in hands-up position, elbows in close. Exert slight pressure to assist opposite dancer in turning. Arcing turns should be utilized rather than pull by type of movements and should flow effortlessly from one turn to the other so that you are in a sense, "weaving" along the line.” (Sadly very few of the MWSD dancers that I have danced with seem to have understood this; they do lousy Waves with hand-holds at waist level and Grand Right & Left instead of Swing Thru!)
I don’t find dis-engagement to be an issue with a Cupped-Elbow Forearm Hold in the moves that I use it for. But it certainly doesn’t give the ability to spin out of it. The standard contra Allemande is much better if you want to spin out of Allemande Left 1.5 or Contra Corners. If only we could find a way to get people to do it better…
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
From: Folk Dance <ceilidh.caller.bob(a)gmail.com>
Sent: 21 May 2019 12:12
To: John Sweeney <john(a)modernjive.com>
Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety
I agree with John's concerns over gripping in the forearm hold, and the increased security of the elbow cup - provided dancers are reminded that thumbs do not belong in the soft, vulnerable inside of elbows!
However, I think the full elbow cup grip gives up a certain freedom of disengagement and if we tried to use it universally would result in some awkward transitions - balance the wave to swing through for instance would be clunky with an elbow cup. A well taught hooked or flat hand (properly vertical and balanced!) hand allemande would be my preference.
I'm not sure I'm clear on the "flat" grip issues - could someone give me a clear definition of what they consider to be this problematic option?
Bob
On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 10:19 AM John Sweeney via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net> > wrote:
Hmm… I seem to have stirred up a hornet’s nest! It is great to see discussion on this important topic.
There are two very different forearm holds.
*** In front of the elbow ***:
This is the MWSD version. Callerlab defines it as:
“Forearm: The arms are held past the wrist but not past the elbow joint. Each dancer places the hand on the inside of the arm of the person with whom he is to work. The fingers and thumb are held in close. The center of the turn will be at the joined arms, so, while turning, each dancer is moving equally around the other.”
I think this is what Andrea is describing (my apologies if I am wrong).
I don’t like this one. Sorry.
The connection is not as good as it could be.
Good connection can often only be achieved by gripping the other person’s arm.
It provides the opportunity to grip hard.
I often find that, due to different arm lengths, the gap between by thumb and index finger is pressed against the inside of the other person’s upper arm. This can be uncomfortable.
The one I do like is:
*** Behind the elbow ***:
Put your thumb beside your fingers. Curve your hand. Place your forearms together. Place your curved hand behind your partner’s forearm, just above the elbow. Get close enough so that your upper arm is vertical.
This is a great connection.
There is no need to grip.
You are close together so that you can turn really well.
It is very effective for 1.5 turns.
Thumbs are not involved so the chance of gripping is greatly reduced.
It can be achieved instantaneously.
There is little opportunity to mess it up.
You can see it being used in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_wncJcFPVo
There is a good example 5 seconds in - look at the second couple on the right (two ladies - one in grey).
We use this hold for all sorts of dances in the UK. It is great for Strip the Willow and Lock Chain Swings (i.e. Grand Right and Left where you don’t pull by, instead you turn 1.5 times with each dancer).
I would thoroughly recommend this as an alternative Allemande style.
Try them and see what you think.
(P.S. The really sad thing about that video Is the swings. If only the caller had told them to take the same forearm hold and join left hands underneath, then they could have had so much more fun swinging!)
(P.P.S. I love this dance. Nottingham Swing. I spent my first 50 years in Nottingham, so I have been dancing this dance for nearly 50 years now and I still love it.)
(P.P.P.S. The dance is actually from Northamptonshire - 50 mile south.)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com <mailto:john@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
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Hi all,
I think that particular video is a poor example of what forearm turns can be. I can’t deny the potential for sweat, but, confession, my hands sweat like crazy anyway, and I seem to collect plenty of other people’s sweat in swings and courtesy turns, as it is.
I disagree about weight. The difference is that the connection puts less stress on joints and therefore feels lighter, but is, in fact, tighter. At contra dances, doing a traditional allemande, where according to Rich we should find it easy to give weight, instead there’s a panoply of styles of mangling hands wrists and shoulders, flexing or flopping elbows, which result in all too few actually satisfying and well weighted allemandes, regardless of role danced. If it were easy for that allemande to be well executed and well weighted, wouldn’t it more generally be so? Wouldn’t there be fewer defensive variants?
The forearm turn is almost impossible to mess up, with fewer joints involved, and even when less weight is applied, is firm and close enough to result in timely movement. Whatever else can be said about it, it does not permit wide spacing between bodies, and people do automatically bend their elbows to something like the appropriate angle. There only being one angle to adjust makes it easier to fine tune, in my opinion.
Richard Fisher requested, I think, a description. To be as accurate as possible I asked my partner, who, like me, has been a long time contra and English dancer, as well as a MWSD dancer. (I have always danced at gay clubs, which, I understand may be zestier than average?, and he is a MIT Tech squares alum, which, being a college club, may also dance with higher energy than the club in the video) to simply give me a MWSD forearm as if we were about to, for example, swing thru. He gave me what I expected, and what I consider good form: full hand and fingers solidly on the meaty inside of my forearm, which let me do the same, forming a flat wristed, full hand through forearm connection for both of us. Instead of a W, you get more like a \__/ look. The outsides of the fingers are to a wall, the insides pushing at the forearm, like we pressure the hand in a traditional hold. It feels more like the whole arm is involved to me, less muscle action needed, only enough to maintain the arm position. We varied in how we held our digits, I had mine more open, he kept his flat, either way it functions like a mitt. Both of us used our palms to make the primary connection, fingers lighter. As in any allemande, the elbow and shoulder firm up to complete the connection. It can be very zippy indeed!
I’m still searching for a clear example in video form. I’ll let you all know if I find one from sources I have access to.
FWIW, I am exhausted from the last few years of the community arguing about words and terms. So I’m leery of us picking yet another thing to get exercised over. If anyone truly gets near perfect results from their teach of a trad allemande, I will adopt their words on the spot. Otherwise I’ll continue to see the leas than desirable quality of allemandes experienced as a pitfall of the hold itself combined with the usual humans being human, each with individual understandings, abilities, etc leading to highly variable execution, rather than a consequence of sub par teaching.
Peace everyone.
Andrea
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 21, 2019, at 1:50 AM, Erik Hoffman via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Yes, sweaty men’s arms? IckQ! Sweaty women’s arms? Glowing!
>
>
>
>
> From: Callers <callers-bounces(a)lists.sharedweight.net> On Behalf Of Rich Sbardella via Callers
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:34 PM
> To: Don Veino <sharedweight_net(a)veino.com>
> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety
>
> Don,
> That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD.
> No skin too skin.
> Rich
>
> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact!
> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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Yes, sweaty men’s arms? IckQ! Sweaty women’s arms? Glowing!
From: Callers <callers-bounces(a)lists.sharedweight.net> On Behalf Of Rich Sbardella via Callers
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2019 5:34 PM
To: Don Veino <sharedweight_net(a)veino.com>
Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Hand Turns & Safety
Don,
That is why Gents wear long sleeves all year in MWSD.
No skin too skin.
Rich
On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 8:19 PM Don Veino via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Not to mention a lot less sweaty skin contact!
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