Thank you, Michael. The term for the WWII tragedy still evokes a lot of pain for those who survived it and their descendants, and hopefully will have no further use in a forum devoted to dancing -
Bob
Ron:
"we're comparing our having fun traveling to various dances to the widespread persecution of an ethnicity (the worst being the Holocaust)."
Maybe you do. No one else uses such bizarre logic. Conbtradancers as a group are about as left of center and non-discriminatory in their beliefs as any non-political group gets.
Your suggestion is absurd
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
Ron:
"we're comparing our having fun traveling to various dances to the widespread persecution of an ethnicity (the worst being the Holocaust)."
Maybe you do. No one else uses such bizarre logic. Conbtradancers as a group are about as left of center and non-discriminatory in their beliefs as any non-political group gets.
Your suggestion is absurd
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
On Sunday, April 3, 2016 8:38 PM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote:
That article had a few interesting *new* points, for me.1. That Roma are in the US, not just Europe, and face continued discrimination.
2. That Roma in the US often don't speak up about their identity out of fear of discrimination.
3. That perhaps the use of "gypsy" as a term isn't as bad as non-Roma self-identitying as "dance gypsies". Roma wander because they are persecuted or can't find work. When we talk about "dance gypsies" beig wandering from place to place, we're comparing our having fun traveling to various dances to the widespread persecution of an ethnicity (the worst being the Holocaust).On Apr 1, 2016 10:03 AM, "via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I was thinking that very thing, but didn't have any experiences. Something I read recently pointed out that Romani people in Spain proudly refer to themselves as "Gitano" which translates to Gypsy.
This is issue is not as cut and dry as many of us would like it to be.
Thanks for sharing this story.
******************************************************************************************************
Amy Carroll
amy(a)calleramy.com
206-330-7408
http://www.calleramy.com/
On April 1, 2016 at 9:02 AM Rich Sbardella <richsbardella(a)gmail.com> wrote:
There are still at least two sides to this argument. Although I am using the term less and less, I want to relate a recent experience.
I was dancing in one of MA biggest contra venues as a caller walked the a dance with a "two eyed" turn. A dancer in my line became more than a little upset, yelling it "it's a gypsy". Turns out the dancer is Romani, and the term "gypsy" is one he proudly owns.
I do not think the Roma people as a whole have come to a consensus. (For example, The Gypsy Kings proudly use the term as a reference to their heritage.)
Rich Stafford
On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 4:56 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Ms Carroll:
Quite frankly a fairly useless article for us. Ms Raessi is "a Romani/Métis researcher and activist" so it seems logical that she dislikes the term gypsy.
She lists alleged myths stereotypes about Romani people
Every ethnic group has an associated set of myths and stereotypes. Every ethnic group tries to purge the negative stereotypes and retain the positive aspects of their heritage.Ms Raessi writes "many people find that using this term is wrong because it perpetuates misinformation about our origins"This makes little sense. Anyone person bigoted enough to entertain any of her alleged stereotypes has no idea about the origins of Romani people.
Ms Raessi writes "...the term has been used as a racial slur and is loaded with stereotypes ..."Yes the word gypsy has been used to deprecate Romani people but over the years it evolved to mean a free-spirited or nomadic person.Other ethnic slurs (such as kike, chink, jap or nigger) have not similarly evolved, and thus their use remains offensive. This article discusses some English words or idioms that evolved from ethnic slurs:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/24/offensive-words-_n_4144472.h…
The ongoing discussion during the past year of the word gypsy has included claims that some persons of Romani descent embrace gypsy and its positive aspects of current usage, most don't care, and some hate the word. And of course only those who object will speak out. As long the common usage of gypsy keeps evolving towards a free-spirited or nomadic person, keeping it in the contra lexicon seems appropriate
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 584
On Thursday, March 31, 2016 11:32 PM, via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
http://bellydanceu.net/culture/520/
"What's wrong with the Word 'Gypsy'?"
******************************************************************************************************
Amy Carroll
amy(a)calleramy.com
206-330-7408
http://www.calleramy.com/
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
Hello Ron:
You wrote: "My post said I found 3 points "interesting", and listed the three points. I didn't even link the article on Shared Weight in the first place." Is it bizarre for readers of this thread to assume you listed the three points because you approved or agreed with them?
To answer your questions:Ever hear the phrase, "don't shoot the messenger "? Yes. Calling a particular instance of a person's logic bizarre is not calling a person bizarre.Should Amy be chastised for linking that article here? NoOf all people, are you the one in a position to chastise about bad behavior on this list? (a) Yes (b) Ever hear the phrase, "don't shoot the messenger "?As an aside, I worked in my previous career on a year-long project with the US Holocaust Memorial Museum. Your alleged appreciation of the global tragedy of which the museum serves to remind us is all the more reason you owe us an apology for associating the tragedy with contra dancing.
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
Hello Ron:
Your statement "we're comparing our having fun traveling to various dances to the widespread persecution of an ethnicity (the worst being the Holocaust)."
was an intentional, malicious, misguided personal attack on every contradancer who speaks the words "dance gypsy," who uses the word "gypsy" when teaching a dance, who has a T-shirt or bumper sticker with those innocuous words, or who converses about "gypsy" figure--no matter how much socially consciousness that dancer may be in thought and in deed.
You probably should not participate in any public forum about even a mildly controversial topic, if you take personal affront at someone who, with an accompanying explanation, refers to an idea you expressed as absurd.
Maybe you need a more specific example. In the past 6 months I attended two dance weekends which featured a particular well known caller. The first weekend this caller used a surrogate for "gypsy." The next weekend, several months later, this caller used the term "gypsy." Any suggestion that this caller was now "having fun" with "the persecution of an ethnicity (the worst being the Holocaust)" will strike most people as absurd--whether you think so or not.
And your associating with the Holocaust any aspect of contra dancing seems six million times more tasteless and inappropriate than someone referring, with explanation, to an idea of yours as absurd. You owe everyone on this list an apology
Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
I also don't want to read any more of Michael's replies, particularly on
this issue (but also on others: see the comparing shadow swings to groping,
etc). Several people have asked him to stop, but he won't. But I don't
think "this list isn't working" just because some of us think one person is
rude.
Maybe others disagree, and find his comments helpful. Great! To each
their own. But I can't figure out a way to block receiving his emails
without also blocking quite a bit of other traffic on this list. Has
anybody else been able to do so? Moderators, would this be a feature that
could be added?
On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 9:43 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> I'm really tired of personal attacks here on Shared Weight, and a high
> percentage comes from one person.
>
> I've asked Michael Fuerst to not contact me again. I've already cut down
> my usage, but if we can't trade ideas without having them called "bizarre"
> and "absurd", then this list isn't working.
> On Apr 4, 2016 1:56 AM, "Michael Fuerst" <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ron:
>>
>> "we're comparing our having fun traveling to various dances to the
>> widespread persecution of an ethnicity (the worst being the Holocaust)."
>>
>> Maybe you do. No one else uses such bizarre logic.
>> Conbtradancers as a group are about as left of center and
>> non-discriminatory in their beliefs as any non-political group gets.
>> Your suggestion is absurd
>>
>>
>> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, April 3, 2016 8:38 PM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> That article had a few interesting *new* points, for me.
>> 1. That Roma are in the US, not just Europe, and face continued
>> discrimination.
>> 2. That Roma in the US often don't speak up about their identity out of
>> fear of discrimination.
>> 3. That perhaps the use of "gypsy" as a term isn't as bad as non-Roma
>> self-identitying as "dance gypsies". Roma wander because they are
>> persecuted or can't find work. When we talk about "dance gypsies" beig
>> wandering from place to place, we're comparing our having fun traveling to
>> various dances to the widespread persecution of an ethnicity (the worst
>> being the Holocaust).
>> On Apr 1, 2016 10:03 AM, "via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking that very thing, but didn't have any experiences.
>> Something I read recently pointed out that Romani people in Spain proudly
>> refer to themselves as "Gitano" which translates to Gypsy.
>> This is issue is not as cut and dry as many of us would like it to be.
>> Thanks for sharing this story.
>>
>> ******************************************************************************************************
>> Amy Carroll
>> amy(a)calleramy.com
>> 206-330-7408
>> http://www.calleramy.com/
>>
>>
>> On April 1, 2016 at 9:02 AM Rich Sbardella <richsbardella(a)gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> There are still at least two sides to this argument. Although I am using
>> the term less and less, I want to relate a recent experience.
>>
>> I was dancing in one of MA biggest contra venues as a caller walked the a
>> dance with a "two eyed" turn. A dancer in my line became more than a
>> little upset, yelling it "it's a gypsy". Turns out the dancer is Romani,
>> and the term "gypsy" is one he proudly owns.
>>
>> I do not think the Roma people as a whole have come to a consensus.
>> (For example, The Gypsy Kings proudly use the term as a reference to their
>> heritage.)
>>
>> Rich Stafford
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 4:56 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <
>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Ms Carroll:
>>
>> Quite frankly a fairly useless article for us.
>> Ms Raessi is "a Romani/Métis researcher and activist" so it seems
>> logical that she dislikes the term gypsy.
>> She lists alleged myths stereotypes about Romani people
>> Every ethnic group has an associated set of myths and stereotypes.
>> Every ethnic group tries to purge the negative stereotypes and retain the
>> positive aspects of their heritage.
>> Ms Raessi writes "many people find that using this term is wrong because
>> it perpetuates misinformation about our origins"
>> This makes little sense. Anyone person bigoted enough to entertain
>> any of her alleged stereotypes has no idea about the origins of Romani
>> people.
>>
>> Ms Raessi writes "...the term has been used as a racial slur and is
>> loaded with stereotypes ..."
>> Yes the word gypsy has been used to deprecate Romani people but over the
>> years it evolved to mean a free-spirited or nomadic person.
>> Other ethnic slurs (such as kike, chink, jap or nigger) have not
>> similarly evolved, and thus their use remains offensive.
>> This article discusses some English words or idioms that evolved from
>> ethnic slurs:
>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/24/offensive-words-_n_4144472.html
>>
>> The ongoing discussion during the past year of the word gypsy has
>> included claims that some persons of Romani descent embrace gypsy and its
>> positive aspects of current usage, most don't care, and some hate the
>> word. And of course only those who object will speak out.
>> As long the common usage of gypsy keeps evolving towards a free-spirited
>> or nomadic person, keeping it in the contra lexicon seems appropriate
>>
>>
>> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 584
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, March 31, 2016 11:32 PM, via Callers <
>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://bellydanceu.net/culture/520/
>> "What's wrong with the Word 'Gypsy'?"
>>
>> ******************************************************************************************************
>> Amy Carroll
>> amy(a)calleramy.com
>> 206-330-7408
>> http://www.calleramy.com/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
--
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761
Are there any videos out there of band/callers doing rolling starts or musical walk thrus?
Seth Tepfer
Director of Administrative Computing
Oxford College
770-784-8487
seth.tepfer(a)emory.edu
Use AskIT for fastest response: Oxford.emory.edu/AskIT<https://app.oxford.emory.edu/WebApps/OCIT/forms/AskIT/index.cfm>
<https://app.oxford.emory.edu/WebApps/Directories/index.cfm?fuseaction=v.sea…>
________________________________
This e-mail message (including any attachments) is for the sole use of
the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
information. If the reader of this message is not the intended
recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution
or copying of this message (including any attachments) is strictly
prohibited.
If you have received this message in error, please contact
the sender by reply e-mail message and destroy all copies of the
original message (including attachments).
Tom asked about combinations of Chassee and Heel & Toe in old English
dances.
Well first of all, these days in England we usually say Gallop rather than
Chassee.
It depends on what you mean by old. I have these in my box:
Pat-a-Cake Polka
The Swedish Masquerade (thought that is a polka rather than a gallop)
Ping
Wee Willie
Redwing Mixer (1950s I think)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
That article had a few interesting *new* points, for me.
1. That Roma are in the US, not just Europe, and face continued
discrimination.
2. That Roma in the US often don't speak up about their identity out of
fear of discrimination.
3. That perhaps the use of "gypsy" as a term isn't as bad as non-Roma
self-identitying as "dance gypsies". Roma wander because they are
persecuted or can't find work. When we talk about "dance gypsies" beig
wandering from place to place, we're comparing our having fun traveling to
various dances to the widespread persecution of an ethnicity (the worst
being the Holocaust).
On Apr 1, 2016 10:03 AM, "via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
wrote:
> I was thinking that very thing, but didn't have any experiences.
> Something I read recently pointed out that Romani people in Spain proudly
> refer to themselves as "Gitano" which translates to Gypsy.
>
> This is issue is not as cut and dry as many of us would like it to be.
>
> Thanks for sharing this story.
>
>
> ******************************************************************************************************
> Amy Carroll
> amy(a)calleramy.com
> 206-330-7408
> http://www.calleramy.com/
>
>
>
> On April 1, 2016 at 9:02 AM Rich Sbardella <richsbardella(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> There are still at least two sides to this argument. Although I am using
> the term less and less, I want to relate a recent experience.
>
> I was dancing in one of MA biggest contra venues as a caller walked the a
> dance with a "two eyed" turn. A dancer in my line became more than a
> little upset, yelling it "it's a gypsy". Turns out the dancer is Romani,
> and the term "gypsy" is one he proudly owns.
>
> I do not think the Roma people as a whole have come to a consensus. (For
> example, The Gypsy Kings proudly use the term as a reference to their
> heritage.)
>
> Rich Stafford
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 4:56 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Ms Carroll:
>
> Quite frankly a fairly useless article for us.
> Ms Raessi is "a Romani/Métis researcher and activist" so it seems logical
> that she dislikes the term gypsy.
> She lists alleged myths stereotypes about Romani people
> Every ethnic group has an associated set of myths and stereotypes.
> Every ethnic group tries to purge the negative stereotypes and retain the
> positive aspects of their heritage.
> Ms Raessi writes "many people find that using this term is wrong because
> it perpetuates misinformation about our origins"
> This makes little sense. Anyone person bigoted enough to entertain
> any of her alleged stereotypes has no idea about the origins of Romani
> people.
>
> Ms Raessi writes "...the term has been used as a racial slur and is
> loaded with stereotypes ..."
> Yes the word gypsy has been used to deprecate Romani people but over the
> years it evolved to mean a free-spirited or nomadic person.
> Other ethnic slurs (such as kike, chink, jap or nigger) have not similarly
> evolved, and thus their use remains offensive.
> This article discusses some English words or idioms that evolved from
> ethnic slurs:
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/24/offensive-words-_n_4144472.html
>
> The ongoing discussion during the past year of the word gypsy has included
> claims that some persons of Romani descent embrace gypsy and its positive
> aspects of current usage, most don't care, and some hate the word. And
> of course only those who object will speak out.
> As long the common usage of gypsy keeps evolving towards a free-spirited
> or nomadic person, keeping it in the contra lexicon seems appropriate
>
>
> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 584
>
>
> On Thursday, March 31, 2016 11:32 PM, via Callers <
> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>
> http://bellydanceu.net/culture/520/
> "What's wrong with the Word 'Gypsy'?"
>
> ******************************************************************************************************
> Amy Carroll
> amy(a)calleramy.com
> 206-330-7408
> http://www.calleramy.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Callers mailing list
> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
