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Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling

by Jim Hemphill via Callers

I am enjoying this discussion and have gained a lot of insites and ideas on how to improve my positional calling and teaching techniques. Despite the opinion of some, this approach is versatile enough to be applied in any environment, not just ONS's. Here is another aspect to the genderless calling technique debate . I understand that one of the drivers behind the genderless movement is being all inclusive and sensitive towards how people feel about the labels attached to them while dancing. I applaud Ron's efforts at finding a consensus terminology that everyone agrees to, but at least so far, that seems to be a fruitless task. At a dance where positional style calling is used, dancers can be anything they want to be, suns, moons, gems, rubies, ladies, gents, it does not matter because they won't be called any names. I realize that it is much easier on callers to just substitute a label for ladies and gents on their calling cards. It shifts the burden onto the dancers who haven't grown up in a genderless dance environment as their brains translate the label into a term they are used to. Positional teaching and calling is more challenging for the caller. Not every dance will lend itself to this technique but I bet with a little thought most would. Jim On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 6:32 PM, Rich Sbardella via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Folks, > > I have been reading all these emails and getting confused. Here is > another idea. I am relatively new to contra calling but have called > squares for nearly 25 years. Perhaps there are things that I do not > understand. > > Could dancers/dance position simply be numbered? > > After Hands four identify position/dancer 1 (first gent's position), > going CCW next dancer position 2, next position 3, and last position 4. > Then one role could be odds and the other evens. > The numbers could be assinged before rotating to a Becket position to keep > thing consistent. > The caller can call 1 & 3 Allemande Left or the Odds Allemande Left. Odd > Dancers Chain, Even dancers chain, etc. > > All the odd dancers look left to find neighbor or corner, and look right > to find partner, even dancers look right. > > If my thinking is right the numbering will work with triplets. > > A numbering system might be less "personal" than larks/ravens or > gems/gets, and for that reason might be less attractive. A numbering > system has worked in squares for years, but it refers to couples.. One & > Three R&L Thru and first couple lead to the right are two examples. > > Could something this simple work in contra? > > Rich Sbardella > Stafford, CT > > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 3:43 PM, Ric Goldman via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> Apologies if this has been mentioned already, but even in ECD the >> terminology for corners is subject to confusion. If folks have shifted >> from their original positions (for example after a “trade places with >> partner” move), a reference to “1st corners do such-and-such” is often >> met by a question from the dancers “is that people or places?”. For >> example, if you’re facing across the set, and during a fwd-and-back, >> there’s a rollaway with a half sashay, would you call the person on the >> right the 1st corner (right diagonal based on the facing direction) or >> the 2nd corner (left diagonal based on where they were facing at the >> beginning of the dance). Therein lies the potential confusion. >> >> >> >> I wonder what the impact of this would be on chaos contra with the >> additional position or role swappring mid dance. Of course, that’s the >> dancers’ conundrum, not the callers. J >> >> >> >> Thanx, >> >> Ric Goldman >> >> >> >> *From:* Callers [mailto:callers-bounces@lists.sharedweight.net] *On >> Behalf Of *Perry Shafran via Callers >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 02, 2015 7:42 AM >> *To:* Andrea Nettleton >> *Cc:* callers(a)sharedweight.net >> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >> >> >> >> After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in >> that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In >> ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, >> because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In >> an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the >> diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions >> (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second >> corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by >> thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, >> with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of >> "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first >> corner". >> >> >> >> Perry >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> >> *To:* Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> >> *Cc:* "callers(a)sharedweight.net" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >> >> >> >> Hey Michael, >> >> I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will >> always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their >> partner in the hands four. >> >> >> >> The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is >> unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach >> as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I >> called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with >> bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could >> achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could >> have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the >> clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next >> to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing >> as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active >> attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. >> Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your >> geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label >> doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't >> there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing >> your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. >> >> >> >> AN >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> >> >> >> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> Consider this dance >> >> >> >> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >> >> >> >> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >> >> >> >> A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >> >> >> >> B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. >> >> >> >> B2 Women allemande right (4). >> >> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >> >> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >> >> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >> >> neighbors (4). >> >> Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as *second corners* always end the swing on the right) >> >> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >> >> >> >> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >> >> >> >> A2 *First corners* allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >> >> >> >> B1 Long lines forward and back. *Second corners* chain to neighbor. >> >> >> >> B2 *Second corners* allemande right (4). >> >> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >> >> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >> >> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >> >> neighbors (4) >> >> This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. >> >> >> >> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket >> almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so >> they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use >> diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning >> the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner >> reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of >> triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is >> second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along >> opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance >> beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly >> identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, >> you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each >> 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as >> adapting, IMHO. >> >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> >> On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu> >> wrote: >> >> I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global >> calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller >> self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in >> not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can >> answer. >> >> >> >> The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published >> the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, >> ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place >> are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for >> contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. >> >> >> >> However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, >> first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second >> gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was >> suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second >> corners. >> >> >> >> The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now >> do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a >> wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. >> >> >> >> >> >> You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to >> becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply >> before you becketize, which would be my preference. >> >> >> >> Does that clear it up ? >> >> >> >> Alan >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> >> On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> Andrea, how would you handle the following: >> >> 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to >> Lambertville, et all? >> >> 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? >> >> 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, >> Jurassic Redheads, etc. >> >> 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. >> >> 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? >> >> 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't >> mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? >> >> None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. >> >> Ron >> >> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at >> Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of >> global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, >> everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most >> unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of >> first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same >> role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to >> gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for >> example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in >> those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to >> refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But >> since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems >> unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are >> trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Andrea >> >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> >> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in >> gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis >> using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a >> great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings >> dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several >> dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or >> unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that >> there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 >> than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were >> gender free. >> >> >> >> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but >> it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to >> call gender free. >> >> >> >> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of >> gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, >> arcadian35(a)gmail.com. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jim Hemphill >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

9 years, 6 months

Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling

by Winston, Alan P. via Callers

I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. Does that clear it up ? Alan Sent from my iPad On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: Andrea, how would you handle the following: 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all? 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc. 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. Ron On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. Cheers, Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com<mailto:arcadian35@gmail.com>. Thanks, Jim Hemphill _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

9 years, 6 months

[Callers] What Dancers Need to Know and Gender Free Calling

by Michael Fuerst via Callers

So, what do dancers need to know in order to progress through a duple contra dance? (1) At the end of a swing, who finishes on which side. Thus we need some words and concept of these two roles, whether men and women, larks and ravens, or P's and Q's. (This seems really important when neighbors swing, and less important in ECD.) (2) The identity of their current and future neighbors. (Tells dancers which way they are progressing.) (3) A consistent way to designate positions within a group of four. For the moment consider "first corners" to be the positions of woman 1 and man 2 at the start of the a duple improper dance. Prudent use of all of these seems important over the various contra formations: improper, proper, becket (progressing left or right), indescent (2's crossed), and dances where the "1's" (those moving away from the music) start below the "2's." For beginning and intermediate dancers, callers' use of (1) is often easier than (3). In dances with unusual end effects, caller's use of (3) can be difficult. In general using (1) is clearer, because (a) it is easier to find a person, and (b) one's position changes throughout the 32 seconds or so of a contra. I can think of quite a few dances which become much more difficult to convey to the dancers when (1) is avoided. For example: (a) "Second corners chain on the left diagonal" will always seem obscure.(b) Who rolls in front during a roll away, or moves in front during a Mad Robin(c) dances with partial heys (d) Many proper dances Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844

9 years, 6 months

Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling

by Andrea Nettleton via Callers

Ron, I don't dance ECD where you do, so I can't speak to your experience, but where I live, it is not uncommon to do an ECD with one short walk through. Only very complex or long dances require more, but the same can be said of some more outré contras. I would argue that in many ECD's, the moves are piled one on another so the call has to be intricately stacked, and yes, the tempi vary, some being much faster than what contra dancers are accustomed to, some slower. It is so not the case that ECD gives more time to react to the calls, and a late call can train wreck an ECD quite as easily as a contra. Yup, contra sometimes has medleys. These are not the rule. Many communities rarely experience them. And we callers cannot put just any contra in a medley. We rely on experience and quick reaction time. A crowd equally experienced with global positioning would have the same quicksilver instinctive reaction to corner terms as we have to ladies and gents. That a contra has a changeable tune is neither here nor there. I'm getting ready to call an English dance that does just that, requiring merely lively square jigs. I'd say it is possible that the reason corners ceased to be used was exactly because contra was a gendered dance. You could predict who was in what corner based on the choreography and simply call to ladies and gents. In proper ECD, you needed corners because those diagonals contained mixed gender pairs. Proper contras, for whatever reason, stopped using moves involving mixed gender corners, aside from contra corners. I don't know the exact historical reason, but perhaps expedient simplicity, puritanical separation of the sexes, or a move toward non hierarchical dance? Once gendered terms began being used instead of corners, choreography was written utilizing that mode and reinforcing it. That has worked for over a hundred years. Now our society is changing and some would like the dance to reflect that. Re instituting practices which allow for any gender on the corners is merely taking a good old idea and giving it new life. You are saying it can't work, and perhaps are imagining trying to call your normal program to your accustomed crowd without any preparation. Of course you can't do that. I'm saying it can work, because I'm imagining taking many evening of carefully selected dances, well taught, to train people to be as comfortable with positional calling as they are with role names. Then they will have the same reaction time and medleys etc. are totally in the realm of possibility. Anyone imagining that just throwing new names at this issue is going to solve it is naïve. It's going to take work to uproot cultural and subcultural expectations, habits, attitudes. Many will not even see this as desirable. Role name change is a bandaid, a pretty transparent one at that, designed to give the appearance of gender neutrality while changing nothing about how we view ourselves in the dance. Personally, I appreciate Jim Hemphill's hey let's just go for it attitude (though but in from the community would be good). He didn't ask himself all the ways it might fail, he asked himself how he could make it succeed. And succeed he apparently did. I think further success, with all of our repertoire, is within reach. Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask > On Jun 2, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Comparing ECD and Contra has uses. But only to a point. > > Consider: > > ECD walkthroughs often take many times longer than contra walkthroughs. > > The pace and tempo of ECD and Contra are often exceedingly different. Contra dancers often have far less time to react to words they hear. > > Contra has medleys. > > Contra and ECD pull from different move sets, and while similar, is a factor. > > Contra dances need to work with a variety of musical tunes. > > So with those in mind, rhetorical statements like "If they were that awkward, they would have long since been replaced." don't work. Relying on "it works in ECD so it works in contra" - or vice versa - is not feasible. > > Also, they *have* been replaced. Contra grew out of ECD, and the terms changed to fit. The fact that contra grew out of using corners is evidence that corners doesn't work for contra. Else, why'd it ever grow away from those terms? > >> On Jun 2, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> English callers and dancers clearly have no trouble saying or understanding these terms. If they were that awkward, they would long since have been replaced. I think we see positions as roles purely from habit. If I taught a roomful of kids who had never danced using no roles, would they think of having danced a role? >> >> >> It's each leader's call how to teach ballroom hold. I suggest getting becket, the noting which hand you are holding with your P, so you can remember to end holding it again. Keep holding that hand as you face P. Place those same hands on your partners scapula, the dancer using Rhd below, left hand user above. The free indicator hands are then loosely connected. Boom, ballroom hold. You still use the loose hand to indicate which way to face after the swing and let go of them, opening up like a book, so you are again holding the connector hands as in the beginning. >> >> I'm wondering what kinds of groups are even contemplating using non gendered terms, or positional calling. Experienced groups of dancers currently using 'gents and ladies' seem unlikely to do so, and it would likely have little effect on the way people dance. Most would continue dancing whatever role they usually did, and pretty soon, any newcomer could see at a glance that if male, one dances Jet, and if female, Ruby. So we'd just end up with another pair of terms associated with traditional gender roles. Positional calling prevents the reassociation of gender with a new term, but I bet the structure of the dance would be largely unchanged. >> OTOH, if we are talking about groups which have always been gender free, or new groups which fully intend to be gender free, I believe there would be little resistance to using global terminology, and using corners as a position, not a person, is the ultimate neutral mode. The assumption there is that all dancers are created equal, and it's a team sport, where each needs to understand the whole dance and their place in it. >> The topic has been broached, as I understand it, because we care about making the dance space, or some dance spaces, a safe place to not worry about gender identity, because some people are very sensitive/are exploring/have identified in a non traditional way. If we are sincere in our wish to make them comfortable, that care does not end because it requires more effort to learn to understand and teach a particular way. Inconvenient isn't relevant. We are creative people. If we wanted to, we could shorten those terms for prompting (firsts and seconds). We can train ourselves to deeply understand how the positions work and evolve cleaner, more efficient teaches. The search, to my understanding, was for an optimal universal way of calling gender free contra. If we are ok with sub optimal, we could just keep bands and bares, or the occasional moon and stars, which have been used for decades. I will use whatever any given community wants me to use. If I were faced with offering an option to my home gender free group, I would do my best first to try to be a kick ass global terminology caller, before giving in to naming roles, because I truly believe that method is more neutral than any other. >> Cheers, >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? >>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>> It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout the dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in dance terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of fact I'm more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a lark or a raven. >>>> >>>> Perry >>>> >>>> From: Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> >>>> To: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> >>>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>; Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>>> >>>> If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position... >>>> On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner". >>>> >>>> Perry >>>> >>>> From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> >>>> To: Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> >>>> Cc: "callers(a)sharedweight.net" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>>> >>>> Hey Michael, >>>> I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four. >>>> >>>> The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. >>>> >>>> AN >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Consider this dance >>>>> >>>>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. B2 Women allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4). >>>>> Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end the swing on the right) >>>>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor. B2 Second corners allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4) >>>>> This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. >>>>> >>>>> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO. >>>>> Andrea >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. >>>>> >>>>> The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. >>>>> >>>>> However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. >>>>> >>>>> The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. >>>>> >>>>> Does that clear it up ? >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Andrea, how would you handle the following: >>>>>> 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all? >>>>>> 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? >>>>>> 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc. >>>>>> 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. >>>>>> 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? >>>>>> 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? >>>>>> None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. >>>>>> Ron >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Andrea >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Jim Hemphill >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask > On Jun 2, 2015, at 2:16 PM, Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Comparing ECD and Contra has uses. But only to a point. > > Consider: > > ECD walkthroughs often take many times longer than contra walkthroughs. > > The pace and tempo of ECD and Contra are often exceedingly different. Contra dancers often have far less time to react to words they hear. > > Contra has medleys. > > Contra and ECD pull from different move sets, and while similar, is a factor. > > Contra dances need to work with a variety of musical tunes. > > So with those in mind, rhetorical statements like "If they were that awkward, they would have long since been replaced." don't work. Relying on "it works in ECD so it works in contra" - or vice versa - is not feasible. > > Also, they *have* been replaced. Contra grew out of ECD, and the terms changed to fit. The fact that contra grew out of using corners is evidence that corners doesn't work for contra. Else, why'd it ever grow away from those terms? > >> On Jun 2, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> English callers and dancers clearly have no trouble saying or understanding these terms. If they were that awkward, they would long since have been replaced. I think we see positions as roles purely from habit. If I taught a roomful of kids who had never danced using no roles, would they think of having danced a role? >> >> >> It's each leader's call how to teach ballroom hold. I suggest getting becket, the noting which hand you are holding with your P, so you can remember to end holding it again. Keep holding that hand as you face P. Place those same hands on your partners scapula, the dancer using Rhd below, left hand user above. The free indicator hands are then loosely connected. Boom, ballroom hold. You still use the loose hand to indicate which way to face after the swing and let go of them, opening up like a book, so you are again holding the connector hands as in the beginning. >> >> I'm wondering what kinds of groups are even contemplating using non gendered terms, or positional calling. Experienced groups of dancers currently using 'gents and ladies' seem unlikely to do so, and it would likely have little effect on the way people dance. Most would continue dancing whatever role they usually did, and pretty soon, any newcomer could see at a glance that if male, one dances Jet, and if female, Ruby. So we'd just end up with another pair of terms associated with traditional gender roles. Positional calling prevents the reassociation of gender with a new term, but I bet the structure of the dance would be largely unchanged. >> OTOH, if we are talking about groups which have always been gender free, or new groups which fully intend to be gender free, I believe there would be little resistance to using global terminology, and using corners as a position, not a person, is the ultimate neutral mode. The assumption there is that all dancers are created equal, and it's a team sport, where each needs to understand the whole dance and their place in it. >> The topic has been broached, as I understand it, because we care about making the dance space, or some dance spaces, a safe place to not worry about gender identity, because some people are very sensitive/are exploring/have identified in a non traditional way. If we are sincere in our wish to make them comfortable, that care does not end because it requires more effort to learn to understand and teach a particular way. Inconvenient isn't relevant. We are creative people. If we wanted to, we could shorten those terms for prompting (firsts and seconds). We can train ourselves to deeply understand how the positions work and evolve cleaner, more efficient teaches. The search, to my understanding, was for an optimal universal way of calling gender free contra. If we are ok with sub optimal, we could just keep bands and bares, or the occasional moon and stars, which have been used for decades. I will use whatever any given community wants me to use. If I were faced with offering an option to my home gender free group, I would do my best first to try to be a kick ass global terminology caller, before giving in to naming roles, because I truly believe that method is more neutral than any other. >> Cheers, >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? >>> >>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>> It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout the dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in dance terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of fact I'm more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a lark or a raven. >>>> >>>> Perry >>>> >>>> From: Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> >>>> To: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> >>>> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>; Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>>> >>>> If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position... >>>> On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner". >>>> >>>> Perry >>>> >>>> From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> >>>> To: Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> >>>> Cc: "callers(a)sharedweight.net" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>>> >>>> Hey Michael, >>>> I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four. >>>> >>>> The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. >>>> >>>> AN >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Consider this dance >>>>> >>>>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >>>>> >>>>> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >>>>> >>>>> A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >>>>> >>>>> B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. >>>>> >>>>> B2 Women allemande right (4). >>>>> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >>>>> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >>>>> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >>>>> neighbors (4). >>>>> Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end the swing on the right) >>>>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >>>>> >>>>> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >>>>> >>>>> A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >>>>> >>>>> B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor. >>>>> >>>>> B2 Second corners allemande right (4). >>>>> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >>>>> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >>>>> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >>>>> neighbors (4) >>>>> This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. >>>>> >>>>> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO. >>>>> Andrea >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. >>>>> >>>>> The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. >>>>> >>>>> However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. >>>>> >>>>> The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. >>>>> >>>>> Does that clear it up ? >>>>> >>>>> Alan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPad >>>>> >>>>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Andrea, how would you handle the following: >>>>>> 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all? >>>>>> 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? >>>>>> 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc. >>>>>> 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. >>>>>> 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? >>>>>> 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? >>>>>> None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. >>>>>> Ron >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Andrea >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Jim Hemphill >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Callers mailing list >>>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Callers mailing list >>>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

9 years, 6 months

Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling

by Roger Hayes via Callers

Ron Blechner wrote: > Contra grew out of ECD, and the terms changed to fit. The fact that > contra grew out of using [...] Sorry -- fallacy. Contra and today's ECD have a common (and complex) ancestry, but they are both living and changing. There are both continuity and innovation in both communities; let's learn what we can, without assuming that our current local status is the pinnacle of evolution. For example, one innovation in global ECD seems to be to call to places not to faces. It does seem that this makes the dance more open in many ways, and might foster better dancing besides. Good things, yes? - Roger Hayes PS: Andrea: hear, hear. On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > Comparing ECD and Contra has uses. But only to a point. > > Consider: > > ECD walkthroughs often take many times longer than contra walkthroughs. > > The pace and tempo of ECD and Contra are often exceedingly different. > Contra dancers often have far less time to react to words they hear. > > Contra has medleys. > > Contra and ECD pull from different move sets, and while similar, is a > factor. > > Contra dances need to work with a variety of musical tunes. > > So with those in mind, rhetorical statements like "If they were that > awkward, they would have long since been replaced." don't work. Relying on > "it works in ECD so it works in contra" - or vice versa - is not feasible. > > Also, they *have* been replaced. Contra grew out of ECD, and the terms > changed to fit. The fact that contra grew out of using corners is evidence > that corners doesn't work for contra. Else, why'd it ever grow away from > those terms? > On Jun 2, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> English callers and dancers clearly have no trouble saying or >> understanding these terms. If they were that awkward, they would long >> since have been replaced. I think we see positions as roles purely from >> habit. If I taught a roomful of kids who had never danced using no roles, >> would they think of having danced a role? >> >> >> It's each leader's call how to teach ballroom hold. I suggest getting >> becket, the noting which hand you are holding with your P, so you can >> remember to end holding it again. Keep holding that hand as you face P. >> Place those same hands on your partners scapula, the dancer using Rhd >> below, left hand user above. The free indicator hands are then loosely >> connected. Boom, ballroom hold. You still use the loose hand to indicate >> which way to face after the swing and let go of them, opening up like a >> book, so you are again holding the connector hands as in the beginning. >> >> I'm wondering what kinds of groups are even contemplating using non >> gendered terms, or positional calling. Experienced groups of dancers >> currently using 'gents and ladies' seem unlikely to do so, and it would >> likely have little effect on the way people dance. Most would continue >> dancing whatever role they usually did, and pretty soon, any newcomer could >> see at a glance that if male, one dances Jet, and if female, Ruby. So we'd >> just end up with another pair of terms associated with traditional gender >> roles. Positional calling prevents the reassociation of gender with a new >> term, but I bet the structure of the dance would be largely unchanged. >> OTOH, if we are talking about groups which have always been gender free, >> or new groups which fully intend to be gender free, I believe there would >> be little resistance to using global terminology, and using corners as a >> position, not a person, is the ultimate neutral mode. The assumption there >> is that all dancers are created equal, and it's a team sport, where each >> needs to understand the whole dance and their place in it. >> The topic has been broached, as I understand it, because we care about >> making the dance space, or some dance spaces, a safe place to not worry >> about gender identity, because some people are very sensitive/are >> exploring/have identified in a non traditional way. If we are sincere in >> our wish to make them comfortable, that care does not end because it >> requires more effort to learn to understand and teach a particular way. >> Inconvenient isn't relevant. We are creative people. If we wanted to, we >> could shorten those terms for prompting (firsts and seconds). We can train >> ourselves to deeply understand how the positions work and evolve cleaner, >> more efficient teaches. The search, to my understanding, was for an >> optimal universal way of calling gender free contra. If we are ok with sub >> optimal, we could just keep bands and bares, or the occasional moon and >> stars, which have been used for decades. I will use whatever any given >> community wants me to use. If I were faced with offering an option to my >> home gender free group, I would do my best first to try to be a kick ass >> global terminology caller, before giving in to naming roles, because I >> truly believe that method is more neutral than any other. >> Cheers, >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> On Jun 2, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner >> refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper >> context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only >> these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and >> sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first >> corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to >> understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they >> understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? >> >> On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >>> It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that >>> designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout >>> the dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in >>> dance terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of >>> fact I'm more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a >>> lark or a raven. >>> >>> Perry >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> >>> *To:* Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> >>> *Cc:* Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>; Andrea >>> Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>> >>> If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position... >>> On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" < >>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in >>> that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In >>> ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, >>> because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In >>> an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the >>> diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions >>> (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second >>> corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by >>> thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, >>> with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of >>> "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first >>> corner". >>> >>> Perry >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> >>> *To:* Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> >>> *Cc:* "callers(a)sharedweight.net" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM >>> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >>> >>> Hey Michael, >>> I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will >>> always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their >>> partner in the hands four. >>> >>> The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is >>> unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach >>> as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I >>> called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with >>> bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could >>> achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could >>> have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the >>> clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next >>> to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing >>> as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active >>> attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. >>> Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your >>> geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label >>> doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't >>> there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing >>> your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. >>> >>> AN >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers < >>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> Consider this dance >>> >>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >>> >>> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >>> >>> A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >>> >>> B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. >>> >>> B2 Women allemande right (4). >>> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >>> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >>> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >>> neighbors (4). >>> >>> Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as *second corners* always end the swing on the right) >>> >>> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >>> >>> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >>> >>> A2 *First corners* allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >>> >>> B1 Long lines forward and back. *Second corners* chain to neighbor. >>> >>> B2 *Second corners* allemande right (4). >>> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >>> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >>> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >>> neighbors (4) >>> >>> This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. >>> >>> >>> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 >>> 5844 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers < >>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket >>> almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so >>> they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use >>> diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning >>> the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner >>> reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of >>> triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is >>> second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along >>> opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance >>> beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly >>> identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, >>> you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each >>> 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as >>> adapting, IMHO. >>> Andrea >>> >>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>> >>> On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu> >>> wrote: >>> >>> I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global >>> calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller >>> self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in >>> not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can >>> answer. >>> >>> The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have >>> published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left >>> file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents >>> place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved >>> for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. >>> >>> However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, >>> first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second >>> gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was >>> suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second >>> corners. >>> >>> The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we >>> now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make >>> a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. >>> >>> >>> You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to >>> becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply >>> before you becketize, which would be my preference. >>> >>> Does that clear it up ? >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers < >>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> Andrea, how would you handle the following: >>> 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip >>> to Lambertville, et all? >>> 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? >>> 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, >>> Jurassic Redheads, etc. >>> 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. >>> 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? >>> 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't >>> mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? >>> None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. >>> Ron >>> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" < >>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at >>> Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of >>> global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, >>> everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most >>> unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of >>> first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same >>> role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to >>> gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for >>> example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in >>> those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to >>> refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But >>> since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems >>> unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are >>> trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. >>> Cheers, >>> Andrea >>> >>> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >>> >>> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers < >>> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >>> >>> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment >>> in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis >>> using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a >>> great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings >>> dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several >>> dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or >>> unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that >>> there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 >>> than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were >>> gender free. >>> >>> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but >>> it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to >>> call gender free. >>> >>> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of >>> gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, >>> arcadian35(a)gmail.com. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jim Hemphill >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Callers mailing list >>> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

9 years, 6 months

Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling

by Aahz Maruch via Callers

On Tue, Jun 02, 2015, Maia McCormick via Callers wrote: > > I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner > refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper > context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only > these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and > sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first > corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to > understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they > understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? Also, if people really want contextless terms, I reiterate my suggestion: PURPLE! GREEN! PURPLE! GREEN! -- Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6 http://rule6.info/ <*> <*> <*> "Whenever Dan Savage and Miss Manners agree, take their advice!" --Sigrid Ellis

9 years, 6 months

Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling

by Perry Shafran via Callers

It should be noted that there ARE contra dances that use the first/second corner terminology. The Third of July by Tom Hinds is one. The new Centennial Reel is another. The reason why corners aren't used is that there simply aren't enough dances written to make use of first/second corners. I'm with Andrea on this. Contra isn't so much different from ECD. I think that callers and dancers could make that work. Perry From: Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling Comparing ECD and Contra has uses. But only to a point.Consider:ECD walkthroughs often take many times longer than contra walkthroughs.The pace and tempo of ECD and Contra are often exceedingly different. Contra dancers often have far less time to react to words they hear.Contra has medleys.Contra and ECD pull from different move sets, and while similar, is a factor.Contra dances need to work with a variety of musical tunes.So with those in mind, rhetorical statements like "If they were that awkward, they would have long since been replaced." don't work. Relying on "it works in ECD so it works in contra" - or vice versa - is not feasible.Also, they *have* been replaced. Contra grew out of ECD, and the terms changed to fit. The fact that contra grew out of using corners is evidence that corners doesn't work for contra. Else, why'd it ever grow away from those terms?On Jun 2, 2015 12:02 PM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: English callers and dancers clearly have no trouble saying or understanding these terms. If they were that awkward, they would long since have been replaced. I think we see positions as roles purely from habit. If I taught a roomful of kids who had never danced using no roles, would they think of having danced a role? It's each leader's call how to teach ballroom hold. I suggest getting becket, the noting which hand you are holding with your P, so you can remember to end holding it again. Keep holding that hand as you face P. Place those same hands on your partners scapula, the dancer using Rhd below, left hand user above. The free indicator hands are then loosely connected. Boom, ballroom hold. You still use the loose hand to indicate which way to face after the swing and let go of them, opening up like a book, so you are again holding the connector hands as in the beginning. I'm wondering what kinds of groups are even contemplating using non gendered terms, or positional calling. Experienced groups of dancers currently using 'gents and ladies' seem unlikely to do so, and it would likely have little effect on the way people dance. Most would continue dancing whatever role they usually did, and pretty soon, any newcomer could see at a glance that if male, one dances Jet, and if female, Ruby. So we'd just end up with another pair of terms associated with traditional gender roles. Positional calling prevents the reassociation of gender with a new term, but I bet the structure of the dance would be largely unchanged.OTOH, if we are talking about groups which have always been gender free, or new groups which fully intend to be gender free, I believe there would be little resistance to using global terminology, and using corners as a position, not a person, is the ultimate neutral mode. The assumption there is that all dancers are created equal, and it's a team sport, where each needs to understand the whole dance and their place in it. The topic has been broached, as I understand it, because we care about making the dance space, or some dance spaces, a safe place to not worry about gender identity, because some people are very sensitive/are exploring/have identified in a non traditional way. If we are sincere in our wish to make them comfortable, that care does not end because it requires more effort to learn to understand and teach a particular way. Inconvenient isn't relevant. We are creative people. If we wanted to, we could shorten those terms for prompting (firsts and seconds). We can train ourselves to deeply understand how the positions work and evolve cleaner, more efficient teaches. The search, to my understanding, was for an optimal universal way of calling gender free contra. If we are ok with sub optimal, we could just keep bands and bares, or the occasional moon and stars, which have been used for decades. I will use whatever any given community wants me to use. If I were faced with offering an option to my home gender free group, I would do my best first to try to be a kick ass global terminology caller, before giving in to naming roles, because I truly believe that method is more neutral than any other.Cheers,Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Maia McCormick via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout the dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in dance terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of fact I'm more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a lark or a raven. Perry From: Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> To: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>; Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position...On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner". Perry From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> Cc: "callers(a)sharedweight.net" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling Hey Michael,I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four. The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. AN Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Consider this dance E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. B2 Women allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4).Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end the swing on the right)E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor. B2 Second corners allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4)This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO.Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu> wrote: I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. Does that clear it up ? Alan Sent from my iPad On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Andrea, how would you handle the following:1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all?2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star?3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc.4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey.5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate?6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways?None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated.Ron On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now.Cheers,Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. Thanks,Jim Hemphill _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

9 years, 6 months

Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling

by John Sweeney via Callers

Andea asked, "I would love to hear from those who have danced Morris or other single gender sets in hands four whether they use numbered corners or some other designation." Most Cotswold Morris is six men - two lines of three. And, yes, we say First Corners for the long right diagonal (what ECD would call First Long Corners) and Second Corners. The two men in the middle of the two lines of three are Third Corners. I use the same nomenclature (Third Corners) when calling dances like Black Nag. There are not many situations where you have the equivalent of "hands four" in Cotswold Morris. One exception is the Lichfield Hey - Lichfield is an 8-man dance. You will hear the men chanting, "First, Second, Pause, Change". First and Second here refer to POSITION, so you alternate between being a First Corner and a Second Corner. = = = = = = = = = = = I notice that neither http://heatherandrose.org/terms.shtml nor http://lcfd.org/gf-ecd-calling-conventions.html seem to have the word "Swing" anywhere on the page! This seems to me to be a major omission! There do appear to be people who think that ECD doesn't include swings, and maybe in some American ECD clubs they don't. But country dancing in England most definitely includes swings in all sorts of styles. Happy dancing, John John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

9 years, 6 months

Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling

by Perry Shafran via Callers

On the contrary. I think that people will find it difficult to remember which is the lark and which is the raven. And I don't get this differentiation between "labelling the roles" vs. doing something else. Larks and ravens are labels too. I'm just trying to figure out something that is useful for people to be able to remember and something that also can be universal. Coming up with creative terms is fun but it's also next to impossible to find something that one can agree on. The corner designations are clearly genderfree and yeah, there are syllables, but I'm sure we can find ways to shorten it (like "firsts" and "seconds"). Andrea also noted the differentiation between place and person: "In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there." I think that is a useful tidbit for people to understand as well. You know the position, dance with the person in that position regardless of who that person is. That's useful for both new dancers and experienced dancers. Perry From: Maia McCormick via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout the dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in dance terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of fact I'm more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a lark or a raven. Perry From: Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> To: Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> Cc: Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>; Andrea Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position...On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first corner". Perry From: Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> To: Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> Cc: "callers(a)sharedweight.net" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM Subject: Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling Hey Michael,I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their partner in the hands four. The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. AN Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Consider this dance E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. B2 Women allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4).Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as second corners always end the swing on the right)E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 A1 Balance and swing neighbor. A2 First corners allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. B1 Long lines forward and back. Second corners chain to neighbor. B2 Second corners allemande right (4). 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new neighbors (4)This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as adapting, IMHO.Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu> wrote: I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can answer. The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second corners. The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply before you becketize, which would be my preference. Does that clear it up ? Alan Sent from my iPad On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: Andrea, how would you handle the following:1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to Lambertville, et all?2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star?3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, Jurassic Redheads, etc.4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey.5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate?6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways?None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated.Ron On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now.Cheers,Andrea Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were gender free. It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to call gender free. If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, arcadian35(a)gmail.com. Thanks,Jim Hemphill _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net _______________________________________________ Callers mailing list Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

9 years, 6 months

Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling

by Ron Blechner via Callers

This. On Jun 2, 2015 11:01 AM, "Maia McCormick via Callers" < callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > I think Ron's point is that with this set of terms (i.e. 1st/2nd corner > refers to the person rather than the position), if we're in an improper > context, we've basically circled back around to labeling the roles, only > these role labels seem unideal because they have lots of syllables and > sound relatively similar. At the point at which we're talking about "first > corner" and "second corner", isn't it less of a mouthful, easier to > understand, and easier for experienced dancers to convert into terms they > understand to have a set of terms like jets[gems]/rubies or larks/ravens? > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Perry Shafran via Callers < > callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: > >> It's the person in that position at the start of the dance, and that >> designation stays with you throughout the dance. If you switch throughout >> the dance, then your corner designation may change. It also has meaning in >> dance terms, where larks/ravens etc are just made up names. As a matter of >> fact I'm more likely to remember my corner designation than whether I am a >> lark or a raven. >> >> Perry >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Ron Blechner <contraron(a)gmail.com> >> *To:* Perry Shafran <pshaf(a)yahoo.com> >> *Cc:* Caller's discussion list <callers(a)sharedweight.net>; Andrea >> Nettleton <twirly-girl(a)bellsouth.net> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 2, 2015 8:45 AM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >> >> If you want to redefine "corner" as a person, not a position... >> On Jun 2, 2015 10:41 AM, "Perry Shafran via Callers" < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> After thinking about this I think I am starting to agree with Andrea in >> that corners (first & second) just might be the perfect term to use. In >> ECD, where most dances are proper, the first corner is gent 1 and lady 2, >> because in proper dances there are different genders on the diagonal. In >> an improper dance (most contra dances), there are same genders on the >> diagonal. So therefore the ladies would be in the first corner positions >> (same positions as in a proper English dance), and the gents are the second >> corners. In a swing, first corners end up on the right. I think by >> thinking about it this way you could do any dance, easy to challenging, >> with the corner terminology in place. Just substitute any incidence of >> "gents" in your choreography with "second corner" and "ladies" with "first >> corner". >> >> Perry >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Andrea Nettleton via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> >> *To:* Michael Fuerst <mjerryfuerst(a)yahoo.com> >> *Cc:* "callers(a)sharedweight.net" <callers(a)sharedweight.net> >> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:31 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [Callers] Another approach to Gender Free calling >> >> Hey Michael, >> I think you mean that those who began the dance as first corners, will >> always end swings on the right, just as they are standing relative to their >> partner in the hands four. >> >> The dance is obscure to the dancers only to the degree the caller is >> unable to elucidate it. It may take effort for callers to learn to teach >> as effectively this way, but that doesn't make it less clear. When I >> called to the SFQCD, ninety percent of the dancers were men. Even with >> bands and bare arms, so as clear an indication of role as they could >> achieve, they struggled with who ends where after stuff. What if I could >> have given them the tool of knowing their corners, and in addition, the >> clear instruction to note carefully which hand they held when standing next >> to their partner? That would always be their connector hand when standing >> as a couple after swings, chains, and R&L thrus. The twofold active >> attention might have served them far better than the arbitrary labels. >> Understanding that the pattern of the dance depends on knowing your >> geography makes sense. Adding into that the need to remember a label >> doesn't improve the odds the geography will stick, at least it didn't >> there. In my opinion, looking for a person is less reliable than knowing >> your place in the dance. People mess up, but the place is always there. >> >> AN >> >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> >> >> On Jun 2, 2015, at 4:05 AM, Michael Fuerst via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> Consider this dance >> >> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >> >> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >> >> A2 Men allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >> >> B1 Long lines forward and back. Women chain to neighbor. >> >> B2 Women allemande right (4). >> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >> neighbors (4). >> >> Using this thread's suggestions, I think this becomes (as long as dancers understand that those starting as *second corners* always end the swing on the right) >> >> E.J.M.J.F. in Cincinnati Duple Improper Michael Fuerst March, 1991 >> >> A1 Balance and swing neighbor. >> >> A2 *First corners* allemande left 1 1/2 and swing partner. >> >> B1 Long lines forward and back. *Second corners* chain to neighbor. >> >> B2 *Second corners* allemande right (4). >> 1/2 hey, neighbors start passing left shoulder, until >> neighbors on the side they started the dance (8). >> Neighbors pass left shoulders and turn sharply left along set to meet new >> neighbors (4) >> >> This makes the dance obscure to beginning and intermediate dancers. Seems best to have names corresponding to the men's and women's roles, rather than to have dancer's determine which corners they are at any point in the dance. >> >> >> Michael Fuerst 802 N Broadway Urbana IL 61801 217 239 5844 >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 2:26 AM, Andrea Nettleton via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> >> Actually Alan, because we dance improper most frequently, and becket >> almost as much, I think I really don't want the labels applied to people so >> they stick. I'm just using the word corner the way Brooke and Chris use >> diagonal. In contra, we already have a use for the word diagonal, meaning >> the next pair along across the set to the right or left. The corner >> reference we have is actually close to right, probably having grown out of >> triple minor dances. Right diagonal is first corner, Left diagonal is >> second. Make it fit in a hands four and you have pairs of corners along >> opposite angles. It's a place not a person. Then I can write a dance >> beginning with a second corner chain, and it will be those formerly >> identified as gents, but will work totally fine. If the dance were proper, >> you could still have a second diagonals chain and it would be one of each >> 'role'. A direct transfer of the system to contra is not as useful as >> adapting, IMHO. >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> On Jun 2, 2015, at 3:07 AM, Winston, Alan P. <winston(a)slac.stanford.edu> >> wrote: >> >> I'm not Andrea but as someone who's appreciated the value of global >> calling since Chris and Brooke proselytized our West Coast English caller >> self improvement group about it in 2000 and who regularly uses it even in >> not gender free English as well as for gender free English I think I can >> answer. >> >> The Heather and Rose style (which they didn't invent but have published >> the most in) is designed for proper longways. Men's line is left file, >> ladies line is right file. In a square or Becket formation gents place >> are first diagonals, ladies are second diagonals. Corner is reserved for >> contra corners and the immediate neighbor in a square. >> >> However, mainstream English gives us first corners (in a proper set, >> first gent and second lady) and second corners (first lady and second >> gent). If you apply that to a typical improper contra, as Andrea was >> suggesting, the ladies are on the first corners, the gents on the second >> corners. >> >> The answer to each of your questions about how she'd indicate what we >> now do with gender is to substitute a corner reference. First corners make >> a wave in the middle of the set. They back up and second corners come in. >> >> >> You'd have to decide whether the same positional reference applies to >> becket, where it would be the gents, or have the corner assignments apply >> before you becketize, which would be my preference. >> >> Does that clear it up ? >> >> Alan >> >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jun 1, 2015, at 9:12 AM, Ron Blechner via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> Andrea, how would you handle the following: >> 1. Lines of one role/position to the center to a wavy line, as in Trip to >> Lambertville, et all? >> 2. Indication of who walks forward / backs up in a gypsy star? >> 3. Indication of who-leads-who, such as in Ramsay Chase, Pedal Pushers, >> Jurassic Redheads, etc. >> 4. Indication of who is passing while calling a hey. >> 5. Indication of who crosses, who turns in a box circulate? >> 6. Indication any other role/position specific move that I haven't >> mentioned? Turn over right shoulder, as in Fairport Harbour? Rollaways? >> None of these fall under the "most unusual figures" as you stated. >> Ron >> On Jun 1, 2015 11:59 AM, "Andrea Nettleton via Callers" < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> In previous discussions here, on FB, and privately with organizers at >> Hampshire over the last two years, I have discussed the possible use of >> global terminology for gender free contra. I would contend that if used, >> everyone would become more aware of the structure of dances. Only the most >> unusual figures/sequences would be unable to be called. The addition of >> first and second corner positions to the arsenal makes it possible for same >> role dancers to also be called upon to dance together without reference to >> gender. Second corners chain, or first corners allemande L 1 1/2 for >> example. It would have to be agreed that this refers to those standing in >> those positions at that moment. In ECD we use first and second corners to >> refer to the people, first and second diagonals for the positions. But >> since we use diagonal to refer to those across and over one set, this seems >> unhelpful. Simply corner positions works better. I'm glad some folks are >> trying it out at last. I had hoped for an opportunity myself before now. >> Cheers, >> Andrea >> >> Sent from my iOnlypretendtomultitask >> >> On Jun 1, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Jim Hemphill via Callers < >> callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: >> >> The recent discussions on this topic inspired me to try an experiment >> in gender free calling. Last night I called the contra dance in St. Louis >> using gender free calling without telling anyone. The experiment was a >> great success. I received lots of positive feedback on the evenings >> dance. At the break and after the dance I made a point to ask several >> dancers, some were callers as well, if they noticed anything different or >> unusual about the dances or how I taught them. One person noticed that >> there were more dances that included a swing in the center for couple 2 >> than usual. No one I talked to noticed that the calls and teaching were >> gender free. >> >> It took some extra time to construct a fun, diverse 3 hour program, but >> it is certainly possible. Re-labeling the dancers is not the only way to >> call gender free. >> >> If you are interested in the program I used or the larger collection of >> gender free dances I chose the program from, send me an email, >> arcadian35(a)gmail.com. >> >> Thanks, >> Jim Hemphill >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Callers mailing list >> Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Callers mailing list > Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net > >

9 years, 6 months

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