13 Apr
2017
13 Apr
'17
5:09 p.m.
Hi All,
Ladies' Chain to Allemande Left is actually the original version of
the Ladies' Chain! I believe that the Courtesy Turn was added sometime late
in the 19th century, or maybe in the first half of the 20th century.
Prior to that the "Chaine des Dames" was always danced as Ladies
Pull By Right, Allemande Left the Man You Meet - and always there and back
again.
It occurs in countless dances over the last few hundred years, going
back to the 18th century quadrilles and probably earlier.
The Ladies' Chains in Chestnut contras were probably danced that way
originally.
Of course If the man maintains that Allemande position he will end
up facing the wrong way in most dances. So he will usually have to make a
quick turn to his left at the end of the Allemande. I find it quite hard to
persuade the men NOT to touch the lady with their right arm. Many ECD
dances contain this move and I understand that some American ladies hate it
when the man guides her with his right arm.
So, between the two extremes of the man ending up facing out, and
the man putting his right arm around the lady, you have the compromise of
starting the Allemande normally, but then the man turning towards the lady
as the move ends - this is known in some circles as a Polite Turn.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
13 Apr
13 Apr
5:57 p.m.
New subject: Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this dance already exist?)
On Apr 13, 2017, at 3:09 PM, John Sweeney wrote:
Ladies' Chain to Allemande Left is actually the
original version of
the Ladies' Chain! I believe that the Courtesy Turn was added sometime late
in the 19th century, or maybe in the first half of the 20th century.
At a workshop I attended a number of years ago, Colin Hume pointed
out that the dance "Parson's Farewell", published in the first
edition of Playford's _The English Dancing Master_ (1651) includes
an action that is plausibly an early version of the Ladies' Chain.
You can see it about 0:49-0:58 in this videa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X4wpEIOZIM
and you can read the description (which has been variously interpreted,
as you can see if you look for other videos of the dance) here:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/playford_1651/013small.html
I'd be interested in knowing of the earliest sources anyone can find
with a description or illustration of the modern "courtesy turn".
That would include any reference in which a dancing master admonished
men against putting their hands on the ladies' backs during a "Ladies'
Chain" or a "Right and Left". I figure that a dancing master wouldn't
publish an admonishment against such a thing unless he has reason to
think some people were doing it.
--Jim
6:44 p.m.
New subject: Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this dance already exist?)
This is interesting; because I have gone to walking/teaching Ladies Chain without turning
as a couple in just this way...just ladies give right and left to the gent. The
gents-side turn her around keeping the lady's-side on your right to stay, or over and
back the same way.
Walked this last Saturday at a Vermont Grange where the floor was part One Night Stand
dancers and part seasoned traditional"eastern" singing call dancers. No
problems.
Bob LivingstonMiddletown, CT
From: John Sweeney via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
To: callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this dance already
exist?)
Hi All,
Ladies' Chain to Allemande Left is actually the original version of
the Ladies' Chain! I believe that the Courtesy Turn was added sometime late
in the 19th century, or maybe in the first half of the 20th century.
Prior to that the "Chaine des Dames" was always danced as Ladies
Pull By Right, Allemande Left the Man You Meet - and always there and back
again.
It occurs in countless dances over the last few hundred years, going
back to the 18th century quadrilles and probably earlier.
The Ladies' Chains in Chestnut contras were probably danced that way
originally.
Of course If the man maintains that Allemande position he will end
up facing the wrong way in most dances. So he will usually have to make a
quick turn to his left at the end of the Allemande. I find it quite hard to
persuade the men NOT to touch the lady with their right arm. Many ECD
dances contain this move and I understand that some American ladies hate it
when the man guides her with his right arm.
So, between the two extremes of the man ending up facing out, and
the man putting his right arm around the lady, you have the compromise of
starting the Allemande normally, but then the man turning towards the lady
as the move ends - this is known in some circles as a Polite Turn.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
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7:50 p.m.
New subject: Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this dance already exist?)
In case anyone might be under the assumption that I'd claimed to have
invented the Ladies Chain or similar... :-)
My understanding of the context of the original post was looking for a
modern era dance featuring Ladies Chain with Courtesy Turn, proceeding
directly to a full Allemande Left with the same person. That's the sequence
in my dance I referenced (and haven't encountered elsewhere before).
Fascinating and informative Chain history thread please continue...
-Don
8:38 p.m.
New subject: Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this dance already exist?)
Don..and all,
Dover, VT, in a square dance; "Just Because" Ted Glabach, caller:
A1 Head Ladies Chain - BackA2 Sides...the same
B1 Allemande Left on the Corner (8)
come home and Swing with Your Own (8)
B2 Take the Corner maid and we'll all Promenade (8) Because, just because
(8)
Tag B3 Because, just because
Not a modern era dance, not in contra formation, but still in play.
Bob Livingston
From: Don Veino via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
To: Don Veino via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this dance already
exist?)
In case anyone might be under the assumption that I'd claimed to have invented the
Ladies Chain or similar... :-)
My understanding of the context of the original post was looking for a modern era dance
featuring Ladies Chain with Courtesy Turn, proceeding directly to a full Allemande Left
with the same person. That's the sequence in my dance I referenced (and haven't
encountered elsewhere before).
Fascinating and informative Chain history thread please continue...
-Don_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
11:18 p.m.
New subject: Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this dance already exist?)
Hi Robert,
I may be totally missing the point but, in *Just Because*, the chain and
allemande are with *different* people. I agree that's a common bit of
choreography with a well established history - particularly so in squares.
In the dance I referenced (and how I interpreted - perhaps erroneously -
the original request), the person you chain to and the person you allemande
with are the *same* people, and the moves proceed directly from one to the
other for more than a minor fraction (see below).
I'm happy to let go any claim to uniqueness for this approach, should it
matter. We all just add little bits to the foundations we've inherited.
Thanks,
Don
Greenfield Tornado – Becket – Don Veino 20161218
*A1*
Left Diagonal Slice & Take to Gent’s Side (Neighbor Swing)
[First time can be straight across Give & Take; Alternate A1 = Diagonal
Circle Left 3/4, N Swing]
*A2*
Ladies Chain (to P)
Partner Allemande Left 1+1/2x
*B1*
Full Hey, Gents Pass Right to start
*B2*
Partner Balance & Swing
*End Effects*: Wait out crossed over on Left Diagonal at ends.
(Note: as covered in my blog post on this dance, the same sequence but for
the A2 was independently done previously by Linda Leslie as her dance
*Greenfield
Storm*. I modified my dance title as shown to honor hers, once I became
aware of it.)
On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 9:38 PM, Robert Livingston <rlivngstn(a)yahoo.com>
wrote:
Don..and all,
Dover, VT, in a square dance; "Just Because" Ted Glabach, caller:
A1 Head Ladies Chain - Back
A2 Sides...the same
B1 Allemande Left on the Corner (8)
come home and Swing with Your Own (8)
B2 Take the Corner maid and we'll all Promenade (8)
Because, just because (8)
Tag B3 Because, just because
Not a modern era dance, not in contra formation, but still in play.
Bob Livingston
------------------------------
*From:* Don Veino via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
*To:* Don Veino via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
*Sent:* Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:51 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Callers] Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this
dance already exist?)
In case anyone might be under the assumption that I'd claimed to have
invented the Ladies Chain or similar... :-)
My understanding of the context of the original post was looking for a
modern era dance featuring Ladies Chain with Courtesy Turn, proceeding
directly to a full Allemande Left with the same person. That's the sequence
in my dance I referenced (and haven't encountered elsewhere before).
Fascinating and informative Chain history thread please continue...
-Don
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
14 Apr
14 Apr
12:32 a.m.
New subject: Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this dance already exist?)
I didn't catch the difference, Don - see clearly now: a right pull by to a left arm
turn move is a chain to and allemande of the same person. Yup!
Bob
From: Don Veino <sharedweight_net(a)veino.com>
To: Robert Livingston <rlivngstn(a)yahoo.com>
Cc: Don Veino via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 12:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this dance already
exist?)
Hi Robert,
I may be totally missing the point but, in Just Because, the chain and allemande are with
*different* people. I agree that's a common bit of choreography with a well
established history - particularly so in squares.
In the dance I referenced (and how I interpreted - perhaps erroneously - the original
request), the person you chain to and the person you allemande with are the *same* people,
and the moves proceed directly from one to the other for more than a minor fraction (see
below).
I'm happy to let go any claim to uniqueness for this approach, should it matter. We
all just add little bits to the foundations we've inherited.
Thanks,Don
Greenfield Tornado – Becket – Don Veino 20161218
A1
Left Diagonal Slice & Take to Gent’s Side (Neighbor Swing)
[First time can be straight across Give & Take; Alternate A1 = Diagonal Circle Left
3/4, N Swing]A2
Ladies Chain (to P)
Partner Allemande Left 1+1/2xB1
Full Hey, Gents Pass Right to startB2
Partner Balance & SwingEnd Effects: Wait out crossed over on Left Diagonal at
ends.(Note: as covered in my blog post on this dance, the same sequence but for the A2 was
independently done previously by Linda Leslie as her dance Greenfield Storm. I modified my
dance title as shown to honor hers, once I became aware of it.)
On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 9:38 PM, Robert Livingston <rlivngstn(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
Don..and all,
Dover, VT, in a square dance; "Just Because" Ted Glabach, caller:
A1 Head Ladies Chain - BackA2 Sides...the same
B1 Allemande Left on the Corner (8)
come home and Swing with Your Own (8)
B2 Take the Corner maid and we'll all Promenade (8) Because, just because
(8)
Tag B3 Because, just because
Not a modern era dance, not in contra formation, but still in play.
Bob Livingston
From: Don Veino via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweightght. net>
To: Don Veino via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweightght. net>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Ladies Chain to Allemande Left (Was: Does this dance already
exist?)
In case anyone might be under the assumption that I'd claimed to have invented the
Ladies Chain or similar... :-)
My understanding of the context of the original post was looking for a modern era dance
featuring Ladies Chain with Courtesy Turn, proceeding directly to a full Allemande Left
with the same person. That's the sequence in my dance I referenced (and haven't
encountered elsewhere before).
Fascinating and informative Chain history thread please continue...
-Don______________________________ _________________
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6 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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Don Veino via Callers -
James Saxe via Callers
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John Sweeney via Callers
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Robert Livingston via Callers