7 Oct
2019
7 Oct
'19
2:54 p.m.
Hey all,
This is a long email, as it includes three posts.
First, I hope people don't mind, but I'm ccing,
callers and musicians list here, as I think
we can collectively bring about a major shift
in habits w/ our concerted hive intelligence.
I am including the original two posts near the top of
this email, so callers/musicians list people can
see where this started. PLEASE feel free to
cut out the original lengthy posts when replying.
First:
On 10/7/19, Heitzso via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I'm a believer that climate change is a real
threat.
I'm also a believer that our culture desperately
needs activities
that bind people together rather than fractures them apart, and
I believe contra dance is an excellent way to do that.
(sharing weight, dancing with everyone, ...)
I've mentioned the issue of how do we change our
contra culture
to minimize our carbon footprint from traveling to non-local
contra
dances to my wife, Jennifer Horrocks, a few times over the years
(she sews and sells contra dance dresses all over the country).
Recently Liz Burkhart (on this email's
"to" list) posted on Facebook
about her trying to alter her contra
lifestyle to minimize her contra
carbon footprint.
Cut-and-pasting from her post:
> I've spent years with a contra habit that
takes me to roughly one
dance weekend per month. The closest, besides our own, was
83 miles
away and the furthest was 795 miles. I am acutely aware that this is an
incredible amount of distance to be covered for just one weekend (sometimes
a week) for a pleasurable activity. It's been weighing on me more and more,
as it's becoming painfully obvious that our lifestyles aren't sustainable. My
lifestyle at home is mostly pretty simple, but I feel this nagging guilt
when I do something extravagant, like drive to Vermont for YDW. Although
we did our best to cram up to 6 people and our stuff in a van, we still
consumed a lot of fuel to make it happen. Some people flew, which consumes
even more.
> I think I'd like to work on decreasing the
amount of out-of-town events
I go to, and try to find alternative ways to get there.
Carpools are great
and much better than driving solo, but we could do more. One dancer this
weekend took public transit and a bicycle from DC area to Vermont. A whole
band playing for a square dance weekend a few years ago biked from south
(I think New Orleans?) all the way to Nashville. I think this is really
admirable and more people should consider something like this. This
ongoing climate change makes our world a scary place, and it will only get
worse (it doesn't look like those with the power to fix it care to change
the high consumption status quo). It's also becoming more common for me to
have to drive distances to call contra dances, which is harder to find
carpool mates for. I'm not sure what that will look like for me - I am
fantasizing about a NE train/bike tour with dates far enough apart that I
can make it to gigs with this slower and less convenient transportation.
I'm also considering making a vow to never fly on an airplane again. Their
use is so incredibly terrible for our environment.
> Has anyone been adapting their travel habits in
the face of climate
> change?
I believe that we, our contra community, needs to
openly start discussing
this issue.
I applaud Liz's public request for comment and solutions.
Sincerely,
Heitzso
http://atgaga.com
Finally, my reply:
Yes, this is a very worthwhile discussion.
On a slightly side note, 2+ yrs ago a hydrogen station was completed
at a local super market parking lot 1 mile from our house.
I tried for 1 yr, writing emails and calling Stop & Shop, Toyota, Honda,
and people from Air Liquide who were the ones responsible for installing
the hydrogen station. I got absolutely nowhere for all this effort.
I was told repeatedly by everyone I could get to talk to at both
Toyota and Honda (both who make hydrogen powered cars)
that there weren't stations to provide fuel to start selling these
cars anywhere but in CA. To my knowledge (I live in Prov RI),
there are stations near Hartford CT, Mansfield MA (20 mi. from us),
Newton MA, (40 miles from us and close to Boston), and I'm sure
there are others nearby that I'm not aware of. Perhaps you know
of others you could add to this?
CA is the only place you can buy these cars (is what I'm told).
Someone mentioned OR. I called dealers there, and no luck.
SO, my very dissatisfied take on all this was that the industry
(car makers, etc) are doing worse than just dragging their feet
on switching to non-carbon based fuel alternatives. It pisses
me off no end (esp having a station 1 mile from home). But
honestly I don't know where to take this from here.
After all this effort, we switched out from a Toyota Echo ('05)
which had been getting just under 40 mpg for over 10 yrs, to
a Prius, now getting 55+mpg overall, but I'm still not happy
about the carbon footprint.
Biking is great, (but I'm afraid our household is a little to
old for that now), and public transportation is also a great
alternative. However, just for an example, I believe there
is no public transportation that will take you into Concord MA,
where the Scout House is, and where there is dancing at least
10X/mo. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
So I'd love to hear from others and apologize for this slightly
lengthy rant, but for one, I would LOVE to see hydrogen become
the rule of the highways. Their exhaust is water, and being lighter
than air, any leaks would go up, and not spread fire across the landscape,
as gasoline would do, should there be an accident. Oh, and the
Hindenberg? All that black smoke and all the fire after the first few
seconds was due to diesel to run the engine and the canvas bag.
Grrr!!!:-)
These lists rock,
Paul
7 Oct
7 Oct
3:07 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy & fuel consumption
These are some really important things to consider. There are easy ways to reduce our
carbon footprint without avoiding travel
Carpools are wonderful - more efficient and a great opportunity to bond with other
dancers
There are lots of more fuel efficient cars that make a real difference. Outside out local
dances it is starting to look like a Prius dealer's lot - those get near 50 mpg. All
electric or plugable hybrids do even better - but are relatively new and expensive right
now. Trains and buses take a little planning but better for the environment..
only slightly related question: Why is it offensive to call a dance figure a gypsy but
not offensive to be a dance gypsy?
Mac McKeever
On Monday, October 7, 2019, 01:55:01 PM CDT, Paul Wilde via Organizers
<organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey all,
This is a long email, as it includes three posts.
First, I hope people don't mind, but I'm ccing,
callers and musicians list here, as I think
we can collectively bring about a major shift
in habits w/ our concerted hive intelligence.
I am including the original two posts near the top of
this email, so callers/musicians list people can
see where this started. PLEASE feel free to
cut out the original lengthy posts when replying.
First:
On 10/7/19, Heitzso via Organizers <organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I'm a believer that climate change is a real
threat.
I'm also a believer that our culture desperately
needs activities
that bind people together rather than fractures them apart, and
I believe contra dance is an excellent way to do that.
(sharing weight, dancing with everyone, ...)
I've mentioned the issue of how do we change our
contra culture
to minimize our carbon footprint from traveling to non-local
contra
dances to my wife, Jennifer Horrocks, a few times over the years
(she sews and sells contra dance dresses all over the country).
Recently Liz Burkhart (on this email's
"to" list) posted on Facebook
about her trying to alter her contra
lifestyle to minimize her contra
carbon footprint.
Cut-and-pasting from her post:
> I've spent years with a contra habit that
takes me to roughly one
dance weekend per month. The closest, besides our own, was
83 miles
away and the furthest was 795 miles. I am acutely aware that this is an
incredible amount of distance to be covered for just one weekend (sometimes
a week) for a pleasurable activity. It's been weighing on me more and more,
as it's becoming painfully obvious that our lifestyles aren't sustainable. My
lifestyle at home is mostly pretty simple, but I feel this nagging guilt
when I do something extravagant, like drive to Vermont for YDW. Although
we did our best to cram up to 6 people and our stuff in a van, we still
consumed a lot of fuel to make it happen. Some people flew, which consumes
even more.
> I think I'd like to work on decreasing the
amount of out-of-town events
I go to, and try to find alternative ways to get there.
Carpools are great
and much better than driving solo, but we could do more. One dancer this
weekend took public transit and a bicycle from DC area to Vermont. A whole
band playing for a square dance weekend a few years ago biked from south
(I think New Orleans?) all the way to Nashville. I think this is really
admirable and more people should consider something like this. This
ongoing climate change makes our world a scary place, and it will only get
worse (it doesn't look like those with the power to fix it care to change
the high consumption status quo). It's also becoming more common for me to
have to drive distances to call contra dances, which is harder to find
carpool mates for. I'm not sure what that will look like for me - I am
fantasizing about a NE train/bike tour with dates far enough apart that I
can make it to gigs with this slower and less convenient transportation.
I'm also considering making a vow to never fly on an airplane again. Their
use is so incredibly terrible for our environment.
> Has anyone been adapting their travel habits in
the face of climate
> change?
I believe that we, our contra community, needs to
openly start discussing
this issue.
I applaud Liz's public request for comment and solutions.
Sincerely,
Heitzso
http://atgaga.com
Finally, my reply:
Yes, this is a very worthwhile discussion.
On a slightly side note, 2+ yrs ago a hydrogen station was completed
at a local super market parking lot 1 mile from our house.
I tried for 1 yr, writing emails and calling Stop & Shop, Toyota, Honda,
and people from Air Liquide who were the ones responsible for installing
the hydrogen station. I got absolutely nowhere for all this effort.
I was told repeatedly by everyone I could get to talk to at both
Toyota and Honda (both who make hydrogen powered cars)
that there weren't stations to provide fuel to start selling these
cars anywhere but in CA. To my knowledge (I live in Prov RI),
there are stations near Hartford CT, Mansfield MA (20 mi. from us),
Newton MA, (40 miles from us and close to Boston), and I'm sure
there are others nearby that I'm not aware of. Perhaps you know
of others you could add to this?
CA is the only place you can buy these cars (is what I'm told).
Someone mentioned OR. I called dealers there, and no luck.
SO, my very dissatisfied take on all this was that the industry
(car makers, etc) are doing worse than just dragging their feet
on switching to non-carbon based fuel alternatives. It pisses
me off no end (esp having a station 1 mile from home). But
honestly I don't know where to take this from here.
After all this effort, we switched out from a Toyota Echo ('05)
which had been getting just under 40 mpg for over 10 yrs, to
a Prius, now getting 55+mpg overall, but I'm still not happy
about the carbon footprint.
Biking is great, (but I'm afraid our household is a little to
old for that now), and public transportation is also a great
alternative. However, just for an example, I believe there
is no public transportation that will take you into Concord MA,
where the Scout House is, and where there is dancing at least
10X/mo. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
So I'd love to hear from others and apologize for this slightly
lengthy rant, but for one, I would LOVE to see hydrogen become
the rule of the highways. Their exhaust is water, and being lighter
than air, any leaks would go up, and not spread fire across the landscape,
as gasoline would do, should there be an accident. Oh, and the
Hindenberg? All that black smoke and all the fire after the first few
seconds was due to diesel to run the engine and the canvas bag.
Grrr!!!:-)
These lists rock,
Paul
_______________________________________________
Organizers mailing list
Organizers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net
3:19 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
We should avoid the term “gypsy” in all ways, in my opinion, not just as an official dance
call. In some areas of the world it is a racial slur akin to the N word. It has been
reclaimed by some Roma in the same way some lesbians have reclaimed “dyke” but when a term
is reclaimed, it can still only be used by a member of the group. I can call myself a dyke
but you cannot, and a black person can use the N word but I, as a white person, cannot.
Since we are not all Roma we need to avoid the term gypsy in the same ways we would avoid
other racial/ethnic/other slurs. I miss the term, myself. There was a flirty quality to
“gypsy” that “right shoulder round” simply cannot connote. But if there were a traditional
term that used “dyke” in it, I would object, and I need to show the same respect to other
groups. So when I call this weekend, it will be “right shoulder round”, tho in the
walk-thru I’ll also say something like, “don’t forget to make a little
joking-pretend-flirty eye contact as you go around! That’s the fun of it!”
Becky
On Oct 7, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Mac Mckeever via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
only slightly related question: Why is it offensive to call a dance figure a gypsy but
not offensive to be a dance gypsy?
Mac McKeever
5:36 p.m.
New subject: "Gypsy" redux
I am loving calling “look-see” instead of “gypsy". Flirty, fun, easy to call, and
gets at the exact point of the eye contact.
On Oct 7, 2019, at 3:19 PM, Becky Liddle via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
We should avoid the term “gypsy” in all ways, in my opinion, not just as an official
dance call. In some areas of the world it is a racial slur akin to the N word. It has been
reclaimed by some Roma in the same way some lesbians have reclaimed “dyke” but when a term
is reclaimed, it can still only be used by a member of the group. I can call myself a dyke
but you cannot, and a black person can use the N word but I, as a white person, cannot.
Since we are not all Roma we need to avoid the term gypsy in the same ways we would avoid
other racial/ethnic/other slurs. I miss the term, myself. There was a flirty quality to
“gypsy” that “right shoulder round” simply cannot connote. But if there were a traditional
term that used “dyke” in it, I would object, and I need to show the same respect to other
groups. So when I call this weekend, it will be “right shoulder round”, tho in the
walk-thru I’ll also say something like, “don’t forget to make a little
joking-pretend-flirty eye contact as you go around! That’s the fun of it!”
Becky
<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>
Delia Clark
PO Box 45
Taftsville, VT 05073
Office/mobile: +1-802-457-2075
deliaclark8(a)gmail.com
www.deliaclarkconfluence.com
On Oct 7, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Mac Mckeever via
Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
only slightly related question: Why is it offensive to call a dance figure a gypsy but
not offensive to be a dance gypsy?
Mac McKeever
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ 
8:45 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
I'm experimenting with teaching this move as a right shoulder 'round, but
describing it as friendly/playful. I will try subbing one of those words
for RSR. I think it gets the idea of a face-to-face move without the
flirty/slur. I know, I know, there are tons of suggestions out there. None
of them that I've heard get the attitude across, and suggest face-to-face
without actually calling it FTF, or "eyeballs" or something, or without
sounding almost exactly like the G word. I know many people are
uncomfortable with eye contact, but the interaction has been missing when I
call it RSR, and I hear folks being wistful for that. I think a "playful"
might bring the spark back, eliminate confused do-si-doing, and be rather
fun.
-Amy
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019, 12:19 PM Becky Liddle via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
We should avoid the term “gypsy” in all ways, in my
opinion, not just as
an official dance call. In some areas of the world it is a racial slur akin
to the N word. It has been reclaimed by some Roma in the same way some
lesbians have reclaimed “dyke” but when a term is reclaimed, it can still
only be used by a member of the group. I can call myself a dyke but you
cannot, and a black person can use the N word but I, as a white person,
cannot. Since we are not all Roma we need to avoid the term gypsy in the
same ways we would avoid other racial/ethnic/other slurs. I miss the term,
myself. There was a flirty quality to “gypsy” that “right shoulder round”
simply cannot connote. But if there were a traditional term that used
“dyke” in it, I would object, and I need to show the same respect to other
groups. So when I call this weekend, it will be “right shoulder round”, tho
in the walk-thru I’ll also say something like, “don’t forget to make a
little joking-pretend-flirty eye contact as you go around! That’s the fun
of it!”
Becky
On Oct 7, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Mac Mckeever via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
only slightly related question: Why is it offensive to call a dance
figure a gypsy but not offensive to be a dance gypsy?
Mac McKeever
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
8 Oct
8 Oct
12:41 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
I generally call the move "two-eye turn". This seems to work just fine,
and it captures the choreographic essence of the movement -- the walk
around each other with a looking contact.
IMO, right-shoulder round and left-shoulder round are like the
square-dance move "weave the line" around one person. Nothing about
eye-contact or even looking at each other. I don't like those terms.
Of course, when I teach the two-eye turn in pre-dance lessons, I always
advise that it's just looking at each other, that you don't need to
stare or even look at eyes, that you can choose to read the T-shirt or
look at a forehead or anything you feel comfortable with. And I like
your idea of including the concept of playfulness or whimsy (concepts
that are sometimes missing on the dance floor.)
(Thinking about this move -- it's actually a four-eye turn, but that
gets weird.)
Woody Lane
On 10/7/2019 5:45 PM, Amy Wimmer via Callers wrote:
I'm experimenting with teaching this move as a
right shoulder 'round,
but describing it as friendly/playful. I will try subbing one of those
words for RSR. I think it gets the idea of a face-to-face move without
the flirty/slur. I know, I know, there are tons of suggestions out
there. None of them that I've heard get the attitude across, and
suggest face-to-face without actually calling it FTF, or "eyeballs" or
something, or without sounding almost exactly like the G word. I know
many people are uncomfortable with eye contact, but the interaction
has been missing when I call it RSR, and I hear folks being wistful
for that. I think a "playful" might bring the spark back, eliminate
confused do-si-doing, and be rather fun.
-Amy
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019, 12:19 PM Becky Liddle via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
We should avoid the term “gypsy” in all ways, in my opinion, not
just as an official dance call. In some areas of the world it is a
racial slur akin to the N word. It has been reclaimed by some Roma
in the same way some lesbians have reclaimed “dyke” but when a
term is reclaimed, it can still only be used by a member of the
group. I can call myself a dyke but you cannot, and a black person
can use the N word but I, as a white person, cannot. Since we are
not all Roma we need to avoid the term gypsy in the same ways we
would avoid other racial/ethnic/other slurs. I miss the term,
myself. There was a flirty quality to “gypsy” that “right shoulder
round” simply cannot connote. But if there were a traditional term
that used “dyke” in it, I would object, and I need to show the
same respect to other groups. So when I call this weekend, it will
be “right shoulder round”, tho in the walk-thru I’ll also say
something like, “don’t forget to make a little
joking-pretend-flirty eye contact as you go around! That’s the fun
of it!”
Becky
On Oct 7, 2019, at 3:07 PM, Mac Mckeever via
Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
only slightly related question: Why is it offensive to call a
dance figure a gypsy but not offensive to be a dance gypsy?
Mac McKeever
6:10 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
Since the topic has been re-opened…
First, please may I clear up a couple of points of confusion.
The original version of the Gypsy dance move did not involve eyes. The first known
mention of eyes is in America in 1983. Dancers outside the modern contra genre do not
always lock eyes. Indeed, in 1911 Cecil Sharp defined two moves, the Whole-Gip Facing
Centre and the Whole-Gip Facing Outward, the second of which definitely didn’t involve eye
contact!
English is a rich and varied language wherein many words have multiple, different
meanings. This is one of them! In this context the word Gip or Gypsy is a historical dance
term. It has nothing to do with the people known as gypsies.
Roma and gypsy are not synonymous. One of the definitions of gypsy is just “traveller”.
Dance Gypsy just means a dancer who travels.
For lots more background on the Gypsy move please see
<http://contrafusion.co.uk/Gypsy.html> http://contrafusion.co.uk/Gypsy.html.
= = = = = = = = = = =
However, if you insist on linking the two together, the move and the person, then please
read on.
I am sorry, but I do not believe that the word “gypsy” is intrinsically a racial/ethnic
slur. To be a slur it would have to be used in a way that the context and tone make it a
slur. If I call someone a “stupid gypsy” in a nasty tone of voice then it would be a
slur. But, of course, I could say, “stupid blonde”, “stupid Irishman” or “stupid child”
in a nasty tone. None of these make the individual words “blonde”, “Irishman” or “child”
into slurs. Context and tone are crucial in making an ordinary word into a slur. In the
context of a dance there is no slur intended, and none should be inferred.
If it was intrinsically a slur then would these, and countless other, organisations use it
in their names or descriptions?
Gypsy Council USA <https://twitter.com/gypsy_usa> https://twitter.com/gypsy_usa
The National Federation of Gypsy Liaison Groups
<http://www.nationalgypsytravellerfederation.org/>
http://www.nationalgypsytravellerfederation.org/
Friends Families and Travellers <https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/>
https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/
The Pope started his address to the Pilgrimage of Gypsies with, “Dear gypsy friends”.
<https://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2015/october/documents/papa-francesco_20151026_popolo-gitano.html>
https://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2015/october/documents/…
I don’t believe that he intended it as a slur!
I have been teaching dance for nearly 50 years, using the words “Half Gyp”, “Whole Gyp”
and “Gypsy” and of the thousands of people I have taught, not a single one has ever
suggested that it might be a slur in that context.
I am Irish and have cousins who call themselves gypsies and who would be most upset at the
suggestion that the word is intrinsically a slur.
Rather than remove the word from our vocabulary, surely we should instead be trying to
make the word positive. Fight back against those who use words nastily and reclaim our
language.
When all the gypsy organisations in the world declare that it is a slur and change their
names then I might start to believe it, but until then please consider just explaining to
anyone who asks (IF anyone ever asks) that the dance move is a completely different use of
the word, and because of its context cannot possibly be a slur.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
8:57 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
Hey John,
If the N word was also a move that somehow wasn't connected to the slur,
you wouldn't dare argue that it's different or that you should get to call
it, so drop the argument please. Just because you don't think I should be
offended about the word and how it reflects on my heritage doesn't mean you
get to dictate whether I actually am. I would ask you not to decide for
others how they ought to experience and respect their racial identity,
thanks.
Isaac
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 5:10 AM John Sweeney via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Since the topic has been re-opened…
First, please may I clear up a couple of points of confusion.
The original version of the Gypsy dance move did not involve eyes. The
first known mention of eyes is in America in 1983. Dancers outside the
modern contra genre do not always lock eyes. Indeed, in 1911 Cecil Sharp
defined two moves, the Whole-Gip Facing Centre and the Whole-Gip Facing
Outward, the second of which definitely didn’t involve eye contact!
English is a rich and varied language wherein many words have multiple,
different meanings. This is one of them! In this context the word Gip or
Gypsy is a historical dance term. It has nothing to do with the people
known as gypsies.
Roma and gypsy are not synonymous. One of the definitions of gypsy is
just “traveller”. Dance Gypsy just means a dancer who travels.
For lots more background on the Gypsy move please see
http://contrafusion.co.uk/Gypsy.html.
= = = = = = = = = = =
However, if you insist on linking the two together, the move and the
person, then please read on.
I am sorry, but I do not believe that the word “gypsy” is intrinsically a
racial/ethnic slur. To be a slur it would have to be used in a way that
the context and tone make it a slur. If I call someone a “stupid gypsy” in
a nasty tone of voice then it would be a slur. But, of course, I could
say, “stupid blonde”, “stupid Irishman” or “stupid child” in a nasty tone.
None of these make the individual words “blonde”, “Irishman” or “child”
into slurs. Context and tone are crucial in making an ordinary word into a
slur. In the context of a dance there is no slur intended, and none should
be inferred.
If it was intrinsically a slur then would these, and countless other,
organisations use it in their names or descriptions?
Gypsy Council USA https://twitter.com/gypsy_usa
The National Federation of Gypsy Liaison Groups
http://www.nationalgypsytravellerfederation.org/
Friends Families and Travellers https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/
The Pope started his address to the Pilgrimage of Gypsies with, “Dear
gypsy friends”.
https://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2015/october/documents/…
I don’t believe that he intended it as a slur!
I have been teaching dance for nearly 50 years, using the words “Half
Gyp”, “Whole Gyp” and “Gypsy” and of the thousands of people I have taught,
not a single one has ever suggested that it might be a slur in that context.
I am Irish and have cousins who call themselves gypsies and who would be
most upset at the suggestion that the word is intrinsically a slur.
Rather than remove the word from our vocabulary, surely we should instead
be trying to make the word positive. Fight back against those who use
words nastily and reclaim our language.
When all the gypsy organisations in the world declare that it is a slur
and change their names then I might start to believe it, but until then
please consider just explaining to anyone who asks (IF anyone ever asks)
that the dance move is a completely different use of the word, and because
of its context cannot possibly be a slur.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music
Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
9:10 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
But Isaac… isn’t that what people on BOTH sides of the issue are doing? There are VERY few
Roma in the contra community, and we’ve heard from very few overall on this issue. Mostly
it’s just us non-Roma folk arguing amongst ourselves about what WE perceive how a majority
of the Roma people feel about this. And that does apply to people who are both for and
against using the term “gypsy” to describe a contradance move. Aren’t we ALL saying what
is right or wrong for people who are from another heritage?
And now I am bowing out of this controversy as it seems never-ending and very divisive.
Jeff
On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Isaac Banner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey John,
If the N word was also a move that somehow wasn't connected to the slur, you
wouldn't dare argue that it's different or that you should get to call it, so drop
the argument please. Just because you don't think I should be offended about the word
and how it reflects on my heritage doesn't mean you get to dictate whether I actually
am. I would ask you not to decide for others how they ought to experience and respect
their racial identity, thanks.
Isaac
9:16 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
Hey Jeff,
Not **us** non-roma folk, thank you. My family on my mother's side were a
part of the culture and none of us appreciate the folks telling us not to
worry and that we don't need to be offended.
Isaav
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 8:10 AM Jeffrey Spero via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
But Isaac… isn’t that what people on BOTH sides of the
issue are doing?
There are VERY few Roma in the contra community, and we’ve heard from very
few overall on this issue. Mostly it’s just us non-Roma folk arguing
amongst ourselves about what WE perceive how a majority of the Roma people
feel about this. And that does apply to people who are both for and
against using the term “gypsy” to describe a contradance move. Aren’t we
ALL saying what is right or wrong for people who are from another heritage?
And now I am bowing out of this controversy as it seems never-ending and
very divisive.
Jeff
On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Isaac Banner via
Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey John,
If the N word was also a move that somehow wasn't connected to the slur,
you
wouldn't dare argue that it's different or that you should get to call
it, so drop the argument please. Just because you don't think I should be
offended about the word and how it reflects on my heritage doesn't mean you
get to dictate whether I actually am. I would ask you not to decide for
others how they ought to experience and respect their racial identity,
thanks.
Isaac
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
10:56 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
I am working on a shared document, if only because it takes a lot of time
and work to educate people and I'd like a resource with lots of links that
people can easily share. If you'd like to positively contribute, please
email me directly contraron at gmail dot com.
It's the 21st century. We're smart people who love history, right?
"G*psy" has its etymology back to mistaking olive-skinned peoples from
India and Persia for Egyptians. It's _always_ been a racial term, and it's
always been a slang that was put on Romany. While some groups have
reclaimed the term, this is not the majority, and, like f*ggot to LGBTQ
people, or the N word to Africans and African Americans, the word simply
isn't white people's word, even if someone has "given you permission"
to
use it.
When Cecil Sharp introduced it, so far research I've seen shows he didn't
use "gip" it in the racial sense. It was a Morris dance word that had no
roots in Romance languages. Sometime after in the 20th century, probably
because of homonym confusion, other callers and dancers assumed it was
"g*psy".
Romancing nomadicism:
So, y'all have Jewish friends, right?
You all know the diaspora, and thousands of years of nomadicism by Jews was
_forced_, right?
You know that it was forced because of racism and anti-Semitism, and Jews
have suffered greatly, culminating in the Holocaust, right?
It's nearly identical to Romany oppression. Their nomadicism has been
forced. They have the same myths, same racist stereotypes of baby stealing
and dark magic. They've been denied citizenship and forced to relocate
century after century in Europe. They suffered over a million deaths in the
Holocaust.
Why, then, would we romanticize their forced nomadicism?
In dance,
Ron Blechner
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 9:16 AM Isaac Banner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey Jeff,
Not **us** non-roma folk, thank you. My family on my mother's side were a
part of the culture and none of us appreciate the folks telling us not to
worry and that we don't need to be offended.
Isaav
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 8:10 AM Jeffrey Spero via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
But Isaac… isn’t that what people on BOTH sides
of the issue are doing?
There are VERY few Roma in the contra community, and we’ve heard from very
few overall on this issue. Mostly it’s just us non-Roma folk arguing
amongst ourselves about what WE perceive how a majority of the Roma people
feel about this. And that does apply to people who are both for and
against using the term “gypsy” to describe a contradance move. Aren’t we
ALL saying what is right or wrong for people who are from another heritage?
And now I am bowing out of this controversy as it seems never-ending and
very divisive.
Jeff
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Isaac Banner via
Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey John,
If the N word was also a move that somehow wasn't connected to the
slur, you
wouldn't dare argue that it's different or that you should get to
call it, so drop the argument please. Just because you don't think I should
be offended about the word and how it reflects on my heritage doesn't mean
you get to dictate whether I actually am. I would ask you not to decide for
others how they ought to experience and respect their racial identity,
thanks.
Isaac
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
9 Oct
9 Oct
9:56 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
Ron,
I was halfway through a long, researched response explaining why it is a
slur, why just because a particular caller hasn't been personally
confronted at one of their dances they shouldn't assume it's not, and why
the origins of the term, while pertinent are not the whole story on how we
should approach it today when Isaac, in one short paragraph, provided a
much more effective response than mine would ever be. In researching I was
pleasantly surprised by number of good references in the wikipedia article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Romani_people. I found it by
googling "gypsy usage as a slur" which also turned up a lot of useful
material.
I'd love to see your article when you're done.
BTW, I'm really saddened that the term "right shoulder round" has become
the standard replacement for gypsy. It's about as evocative as "modified
ballroom position paired rotation" is for swing and takes too long to say.
I really liked pixie when it was popular, just because I like the word, and
I like two-eye turn, though it doesn't make much sense unless you know what
a two-hand turn is, which many contra dancers don't these days. (Pixie
doesn't make any sense, but it doesn't purport to.) I've never tried
Look-See, which is appealing, but maybe too cute by half, and I fear won't
come across well on PAs. Though pixie and look-see are both phonetic
references back to gypsy. They just rhyme, so it's a way of referring back
to the tainted word. It'd be like if someone who was racist but didn't want
to offend people with the N word went around talking about "those jiggers".
Cheers,
Adam
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 7:56 AM Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am working on a shared document, if only because it
takes a lot of time
and work to educate people and I'd like a resource with lots of links that
people can easily share. If you'd like to positively contribute, please
email me directly contraron at gmail dot com.
It's the 21st century. We're smart people who love history, right?
"G*psy" has its etymology back to mistaking olive-skinned peoples from
India and Persia for Egyptians. It's _always_ been a racial term, and it's
always been a slang that was put on Romany. While some groups have
reclaimed the term, this is not the majority, and, like f*ggot to LGBTQ
people, or the N word to Africans and African Americans, the word simply
isn't white people's word, even if someone has "given you permission"
to
use it.
When Cecil Sharp introduced it, so far research I've seen shows he didn't
use "gip" it in the racial sense. It was a Morris dance word that had no
roots in Romance languages. Sometime after in the 20th century, probably
because of homonym confusion, other callers and dancers assumed it was
"g*psy".
Romancing nomadicism:
So, y'all have Jewish friends, right?
You all know the diaspora, and thousands of years of nomadicism by Jews
was _forced_, right?
You know that it was forced because of racism and anti-Semitism, and Jews
have suffered greatly, culminating in the Holocaust, right?
It's nearly identical to Romany oppression. Their nomadicism has been
forced. They have the same myths, same racist stereotypes of baby stealing
and dark magic. They've been denied citizenship and forced to relocate
century after century in Europe. They suffered over a million deaths in the
Holocaust.
Why, then, would we romanticize their forced nomadicism?
In dance,
Ron Blechner
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 9:16 AM Isaac Banner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey Jeff,
Not **us** non-roma folk, thank you. My family on my mother's side were a
part of the culture and none of us appreciate the folks telling us not to
worry and that we don't need to be offended.
Isaav
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 8:10 AM Jeffrey Spero via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
But Isaac… isn’t that what people on BOTH sides
of the issue are doing?
There are VERY few Roma in the contra community, and we’ve heard from very
few overall on this issue. Mostly it’s just us non-Roma folk arguing
amongst ourselves about what WE perceive how a majority of the Roma people
feel about this. And that does apply to people who are both for and
against using the term “gypsy” to describe a contradance move. Aren’t we
ALL saying what is right or wrong for people who are from another heritage?
And now I am bowing out of this controversy as it seems never-ending and
very divisive.
Jeff
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Isaac Banner via
Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey John,
If the N word was also a move that somehow wasn't connected to the
slur, you
wouldn't dare argue that it's different or that you should get to
call it, so drop the argument please. Just because you don't think I should
be offended about the word and how it reflects on my heritage doesn't mean
you get to dictate whether I actually am. I would ask you not to decide for
others how they ought to experience and respect their racial identity,
thanks.
Isaac
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
10:12 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
"Walk all around" [the left-hand lady] has been the MWSD terminology,
and it seems adequate to me. Why create new terminology?
Bob
On 10/9/2019 9:56, Adam Carlson via Callers wrote:
BTW, I'm really saddened that the term "right
shoulder round" has become
the standard replacement for gypsy. It's about as evocative as "modified
ballroom position paired rotation" is for swing and takes too long to say.
11:25 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
Bob said:
"Walk all around" [the left-hand lady] has been the MWSD terminology, and it
seems adequate to me. Why create new terminology?
The MWSD definition is:
Dance action: Dancers face their corners. Walking forward and around each
other while keeping right shoulders adjacent, dancers return to their
original position, with their backs toward their corner.
This is not quite a Gypsy, no eye-contact, and the final position is with
your back to the person you walked around.
Also, "Walk Around" can mean a number of different moves. See:
http://contrafusion.co.uk/Gypsy.html#A1
I'm not saying you shouldn't use it. Just responding to your query :-)
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802
940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
11:31 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
I hate "right shoulder round". It has the problem of using the term right in it.
That makes it easy for people to confuse with a right allemande or a right shoulder
do-si-do as you are calling it. Or right and left through. People often hear the first
syllable you say to get direction, and that confuses them, especially if you have other
moves starting with “right” in them in the dance. Also, the syllables don’t stand out -
shoulder has little oomph, round similarly. There’s little way to shorten it as you call,
which I like to do to cut down on interrupting the music. It’s a long string of words for
one move. I do not use it. I use “spiral”, which a number of other people also use around
here. I just really, really don’t like “right shoulder round”. I’m afraid “walk all
around” has similar issues, at least for me - walk is used in other situations, you might
have people walking individually around the small or large set, and be shortening that to
“walk” - to me, walk could mean anything. Okay, it’s not always a perfect spiral, because
you don’t always swing afterwards, but it has the virtue of people knowing what they are
supposed to do immediately.
Martha
On Oct 9, 2019, at 7:12 AM, Bob Hofkin via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
"Walk all around" [the left-hand lady] has been the MWSD terminology, and it
seems adequate to me. Why create new terminology?
Bob
On 10/9/2019 9:56, Adam Carlson via Callers wrote:
BTW, I'm really saddened that the term
"right shoulder round" has become
the standard replacement for gypsy. It's about as evocative as "modified
ballroom position paired rotation" is for swing and takes too long to say.
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
10 Oct
10 Oct
8:35 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
I’m liking calling “look-see” so much, especially with the family/community/ONS dances
that are my mainstay. It’s easy to call, emphasizes eye contact, flirty and fun like the
original move. After quickly teaching it or doing a funny demo, everyone seems to grasp it
easily. I’d love to hear others thoughts on the pros and cons of using this. I got the
idea from a discussion on the Callers listserv several years ago.
On Oct 9, 2019, at 11:31 AM, Martha Wild via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I hate "right shoulder round". It has the problem of using the term right in
it. That makes it easy for people to confuse with a right allemande or a right shoulder
do-si-do as you are calling it. Or right and left through. People often hear the first
syllable you say to get direction, and that confuses them, especially if you have other
moves starting with “right” in them in the dance. Also, the syllables don’t stand out -
shoulder has little oomph, round similarly. There’s little way to shorten it as you call,
which I like to do to cut down on interrupting the music. It’s a long string of words for
one move. I do not use it. I use “spiral”, which a number of other people also use around
here. I just really, really don’t like “right shoulder round”. I’m afraid “walk all
around” has similar issues, at least for me - walk is used in other situations, you might
have people walking individually around the small or large set, and be shortening that to
“walk” - to me, walk could mean anything. Okay, it’s not always a perfect spiral, because
you don’t always swing afterwards, but it has the virtue of people knowing what they are
supposed to do immediately.
Martha
<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>
Delia Clark
PO Box 45
Taftsville, VT 05073
Office/mobile: +1-802-457-2075
deliaclark8(a)gmail.com
www.deliaclarkconfluence.com
On Oct 9, 2019, at 7:12 AM, Bob Hofkin via
Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
"Walk all around" [the left-hand lady] has been the MWSD terminology, and it
seems adequate to me. Why create new terminology?
Bob
On 10/9/2019 9:56, Adam Carlson via Callers wrote:
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ BTW, I'm really saddened that the term
"right shoulder round" has become
the standard replacement for gypsy. It's about as evocative as "modified
ballroom position paired rotation" is for swing and takes too long to say.
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
9:01 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
Delia said, “especially with the family/community/ONS dances that are my mainstay. It’s
easy to call, emphasizes eye contact, flirty and fun like the original move.”
Please see http://contrafusion.co.uk/Gypsy.html. The original move was not flirty and did
not involve eye contact :-)
For a family event with children present I don’t understand why anyone would want to
emphasise flirtation.
I teach the Gypsy (and use words such as “lock eyeballs”) at countless family events and
they don’t find it flirtatious; they find it hilarious.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
11:06 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
Good point - I was just trying to respond to someone else’s desire for flirty-ness. With
family dances, I usually do a brief demo of the look-see, with someone familiar with the
move “locking eyeballs” and it gets a lot of laughs, as you say, and is successful.
"Right shoulder round" would off-putting for that crowd, I think. I find “right
hand turn” to be clearer than “allemenade right” for example. Simpler seems to be better
for new/one time dancers.
Maybe we don’t all need to use the same terminology?? Especially for weddings, school
dances, other places where they’re not as keen to learn something complex, but are more
keen just to get moving together, build community, and have fun?? I imagine that if they
have a good time, they might want to try it again some time, at which point they might
want to learn correct terms? Just my musings...
On Oct 10, 2019, at 9:01 AM, John Sweeney via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Delia said, “especially with the family/community/ONS dances that are my mainstay. It’s
easy to call, emphasizes eye contact, flirty and fun like the original move.”
Please see http://contrafusion.co.uk/Gypsy.html
<http://contrafusion.co.uk/Gypsy.html>. The original move was not flirty and did
not involve eye contact :-)
For a family event with children present I don’t understand why anyone would want to
emphasise flirtation.
I teach the Gypsy (and use words such as “lock eyeballs”) at countless family events and
they don’t find it flirtatious; they find it hilarious.
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://contrafusion.co.uk/KentCeilidhs.html for Live Music Ceilidhs
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive DVDs
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>:<>
Delia Clark
PO Box 45
Taftsville, VT 05073
Office/mobile: +1-802-457-2075
deliaclark8(a)gmail.com
www.deliaclarkconfluence.com
10:12 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
Martha,
I have been using Right Shoulder Round for months with no issues. If the
prompt is given in time, dancers get it. Dancers do not confuse R&L Thru
with Right Allemande either, if the prompt is given in time.
In MWSD many calls are preceded by "Left" to change starting hands and it
does not confuse the calls. There is Left Square Thru, Left Swing Thru,
Left Touch 1/4, ...
I am not arguing against Spiral" but simply stating that the predominant
cal in southern New England is Right Shoulder Round, and it does seem to
work well.
Rich Sbardella
Stafford, CT
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 11:17 PM Martha Wild via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I hate "right shoulder round". It has the
problem of using the term right
in it. That makes it easy for people to confuse with a right allemande or a
right shoulder do-si-do as you are calling it. Or right and left through.
People often hear the first syllable you say to get direction, and that
confuses them, especially if you have other moves starting with “right” in
them in the dance. Also, the syllables don’t stand out - shoulder has
little oomph, round similarly. There’s little way to shorten it as you
call, which I like to do to cut down on interrupting the music. It’s a long
string of words for one move. I do not use it. I use “spiral”, which a
number of other people also use around here. I just really, really don’t
like “right shoulder round”. I’m afraid “walk all around” has similar
issues, at least for me - walk is used in other situations, you might have
people walking individually around the small or large set, and be
shortening that to “walk” - to me, walk could mean anything. Okay, it’s not
always a perfect spiral, because you don’t always swing afterwards, but it
has the virtue of people knowing what they are supposed to do immediately.
Martha
On Oct 9, 2019, at 7:12 AM, Bob Hofkin via
Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
"Walk all around" [the left-hand lady] has been the MWSD terminology,
and it seems adequate to me. Why create new terminology?
Bob
On 10/9/2019 9:56, Adam Carlson via Callers wrote:
> BTW, I'm really saddened that the term "right shoulder round" has
become
> the standard replacement for gypsy. It's about as evocative as "modified
> ballroom position paired rotation" is for swing and takes too long to
say.
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
9 Oct
9 Oct
1 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
Adam,
I guess Google is Too Hard for some?
Re: evocative nature of terms.
"Box the gnat", "hey", "chain", etc all aren't
evocative, either. Swing may
be. I love how "right shoulder round" is self explanatory.
I want to underline the excellent point you made about rhyming. "Oh, we
can't SAY that word, but we'll think it. Wink."
Best,
Ron
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019, 9:57 AM Adam Carlson <adam_carlson(a)pobox.com> wrote:
Ron,
I was halfway through a long, researched response explaining why it is a
slur, why just because a particular caller hasn't been personally
confronted at one of their dances they shouldn't assume it's not, and why
the origins of the term, while pertinent are not the whole story on how we
should approach it today when Isaac, in one short paragraph, provided a
much more effective response than mine would ever be. In researching I was
pleasantly surprised by number of good references in the wikipedia article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Romani_people. I found it by
googling "gypsy usage as a slur" which also turned up a lot of useful
material.
I'd love to see your article when you're done.
BTW, I'm really saddened that the term "right shoulder round" has become
the standard replacement for gypsy. It's about as evocative as "modified
ballroom position paired rotation" is for swing and takes too long to say.
I really liked pixie when it was popular, just because I like the word, and
I like two-eye turn, though it doesn't make much sense unless you know what
a two-hand turn is, which many contra dancers don't these days. (Pixie
doesn't make any sense, but it doesn't purport to.) I've never tried
Look-See, which is appealing, but maybe too cute by half, and I fear won't
come across well on PAs. Though pixie and look-see are both phonetic
references back to gypsy. They just rhyme, so it's a way of referring back
to the tainted word. It'd be like if someone who was racist but didn't want
to offend people with the N word went around talking about "those jiggers".
Cheers,
Adam
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 7:56 AM Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I am working on a shared document, if only
because it takes a lot of time
and work to educate people and I'd like a resource with lots of links that
people can easily share. If you'd like to positively contribute, please
email me directly contraron at gmail dot com.
It's the 21st century. We're smart people who love history, right?
"G*psy" has its etymology back to mistaking olive-skinned peoples from
India and Persia for Egyptians. It's _always_ been a racial term, and it's
always been a slang that was put on Romany. While some groups have
reclaimed the term, this is not the majority, and, like f*ggot to LGBTQ
people, or the N word to Africans and African Americans, the word simply
isn't white people's word, even if someone has "given you permission"
to
use it.
When Cecil Sharp introduced it, so far research I've seen shows he didn't
use "gip" it in the racial sense. It was a Morris dance word that had no
roots in Romance languages. Sometime after in the 20th century, probably
because of homonym confusion, other callers and dancers assumed it was
"g*psy".
Romancing nomadicism:
So, y'all have Jewish friends, right?
You all know the diaspora, and thousands of years of nomadicism by Jews
was _forced_, right?
You know that it was forced because of racism and anti-Semitism, and Jews
have suffered greatly, culminating in the Holocaust, right?
It's nearly identical to Romany oppression. Their nomadicism has been
forced. They have the same myths, same racist stereotypes of baby stealing
and dark magic. They've been denied citizenship and forced to relocate
century after century in Europe. They suffered over a million deaths in the
Holocaust.
Why, then, would we romanticize their forced nomadicism?
In dance,
Ron Blechner
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 9:16 AM Isaac Banner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey Jeff,
Not **us** non-roma folk, thank you. My family on my mother's side were
a part of the culture and none of us appreciate the folks telling us not to
worry and that we don't need to be offended.
Isaav
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 8:10 AM Jeffrey Spero via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
But Isaac… isn’t that what people on BOTH sides
of the issue are doing?
There are VERY few Roma in the contra community, and we’ve heard from very
few overall on this issue. Mostly it’s just us non-Roma folk arguing
amongst ourselves about what WE perceive how a majority of the Roma people
feel about this. And that does apply to people who are both for and
against using the term “gypsy” to describe a contradance move. Aren’t we
ALL saying what is right or wrong for people who are from another heritage?
And now I am bowing out of this controversy as it seems never-ending
and very divisive.
Jeff
> On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Isaac Banner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hey John,
>
> If the N word was also a move that somehow wasn't connected to the
slur, you wouldn't dare argue that it's different or that you should get to
call it, so drop the argument please. Just because you don't think I should
be offended about the word and how it reflects on my heritage doesn't mean
you get to dictate whether I actually am. I would ask you not to decide for
others how they ought to experience and respect their racial identity,
thanks.
>
> Isaac
>
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
_______________________________________________
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Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
8 Oct
8 Oct
10:56 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
I apologize. But my point remains that ALMOST everyone who is debating this point is an
outsider.
On Oct 8, 2019, at 6:16 AM, Isaac Banner
<ibanner56(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hey Jeff,
Not **us** non-roma folk, thank you. My family on my mother's side were a part of the
culture and none of us appreciate the folks telling us not to worry and that we don't
need to be offended.
Isaav
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 8:10 AM Jeffrey Spero via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
But Isaac… isn’t that what people on BOTH sides of the issue are doing? There are VERY
few Roma in the contra community, and we’ve heard from very few overall on this issue.
Mostly it’s just us non-Roma folk arguing amongst ourselves about what WE perceive how a
majority of the Roma people feel about this. And that does apply to people who are both
for and against using the term “gypsy” to describe a contradance move. Aren’t we ALL
saying what is right or wrong for people who are from another heritage?
And now I am bowing out of this controversy as it seems never-ending and very divisive.
Jeff
On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Isaac Banner via
Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Hey John,
If the N word was also a move that somehow wasn't connected to the slur, you
wouldn't dare argue that it's different or that you should get to call it, so drop
the argument please. Just because you don't think I should be offended about the word
and how it reflects on my heritage doesn't mean you get to dictate whether I actually
am. I would ask you not to decide for others how they ought to experience and respect
their racial identity, thanks.
Isaac
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
<mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
<https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/> 
11:48 a.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
I think that previous posters have made good points but I am offended by the idea that
"outsiders" can't be sensitive. Doesn't it make sense that the majority,
educated, should be the driving force behind "no ethnicity slurred" and not
leave it in our culture especially in a community that espouses joy and unity and shared
weight, literally?
Julia
________________________________
From: Callers <callers-bounces(a)lists.sharedweight.net> on behalf of Jeffrey Spero
via Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Tuesday, October 8, 2019 10:56 AM
To: Isaac Banner <ibanner56(a)gmail.com>
Cc: Callers(a)Lists.Sharedweight.net <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
I apologize. But my point remains that ALMOST everyone who is debating this point is an
outsider.
On Oct 8, 2019, at 6:16 AM, Isaac Banner
<ibanner56@gmail.com<mailto:ibanner56@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hey Jeff,
Not **us** non-roma folk, thank you. My family on my mother's side were a part of the
culture and none of us appreciate the folks telling us not to worry and that we don't
need to be offended.
Isaav
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 8:10 AM Jeffrey Spero via Callers
<callers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
wrote:
But Isaac… isn’t that what people on BOTH sides of the issue are doing? There are VERY few
Roma in the contra community, and we’ve heard from very few overall on this issue. Mostly
it’s just us non-Roma folk arguing amongst ourselves about what WE perceive how a majority
of the Roma people feel about this. And that does apply to people who are both for and
against using the term “gypsy” to describe a contradance move. Aren’t we ALL saying what
is right or wrong for people who are from another heritage?
And now I am bowing out of this controversy as it seems never-ending and very divisive.
Jeff
On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Isaac Banner via Callers
<callers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
wrote:
Hey John,
If the N word was also a move that somehow wasn't connected to the slur, you
wouldn't dare argue that it's different or that you should get to call it, so drop
the argument please. Just because you don't think I should be offended about the word
and how it reflects on my heritage doesn't mean you get to dictate whether I actually
am. I would ask you not to decide for others how they ought to experience and respect
their racial identity, thanks.
Isaac
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address:
Callers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
12:22 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
I'm uncomfortable with the use of any racial term in the name of a
dance move. Especially if it's an offensive racial term, but even if
it's a neutral racial term.
Imagine if there were a dance move entitled "Black-man swing"?
(I think that part of why "Gypsy" flies under the radar is because many
people here don't immediately perceive it as a racial term.)
Yes, I'm an outsider to Roma culture. But I hope that Roma people, or
any people, don't feel like outsiders to the dance group. Using their
name as a dance move implies that they are -- there would never be a
Contra dance move entitled "white-person swing".
regards,
Alan Rosenthal, dancing in and around Toronto, Canada.
6:12 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 12:22:00 -0400, Alan J Rosenthal via Callers wrote:
Imagine if there were a dance move entitled
"Black-man swing"? (I think that part of why "Gypsy" flies under the
radar is because many people here don't immediately perceive it as a racial term.)
There's a dance called Black Nag (Playford 1670). Should we avoid this in case people
think it refers to a nagging black woman?
There's a dance called The Black Boy (Ashover Book, c. 1764)
Black Jack (Pat Shaw, 1964)
Black Mountain Reel (Tom Hinds, 1991) - might this be a derogatory term for a place where
black people live?
There's a Scottish dance of the same name (Derek Haynes)
This is all getting very silly and I agree with John Sweeney.
Colin Hume
10:27 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
There's a dance called Black Nag (Playford 1670).
Should we avoid this
in case people think it refers to a nagging black woman?
I don't see why. Doesn't that obviously refer to a horse? Is anyone
actually expressing concern about that name? (Besides the fact that any
one dance name is heard much less often than the name of a dance figure.)
While the dance term "gip" or "whole-gip" of old seems quite possibly
not to have had anything to do with the term "Gypsy" in those days, I
think that its change to "Gypsy" was a confluence with the racial term,
and I think that it's perceived as a racial term in modern times.
regards,
Alan Rosenthal, dancing in and around Toronto, Canada.
1:30 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
I wrote something about this recently that may (or may not) be of
interest here (though it doesn't really say anything that others in this
thread haven't already said):
https://blog.samwhited.com/2019/07/right-shoulder-round/
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, at 14:56, Jeffrey Spero via Callers wrote:
I apologize. But my point remains that ALMOST everyone
who is debating
this point is an outsider.
This is a self fulfilling prophecy. If we require minorities to stand up
for themselves, and in the mean time we continue to make them unwelcome
at our dances, they won't come to the dances and won't be able to make
their views known.
Also, as far as I see, no one is suggesting that Roma can't call
themselves whatever they want. They're just suggesting that white people
don't own every word, and maybe shouldn't assume that it's okay for them
to use a word which may be associated with persecution and fear.
As long as no one here is contradicting or pretending to know better
than people from a marginalized group that they're not a part of, it's
perfectly appropriate to try and make marginalized groups that we're not
a part of feel more welcome. If someone from one of these groups has
feedback on how this is done, we should be attentive and respect their
views and expertise.
—Sam
9 Oct
9 Oct
6:33 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
A question for the group on dance transportation. Has any dance organization tried to get
an auto charging station or stations installed at or near dance locations?
Rich.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 8, 2019, at 9:16 AM, Isaac Banner via Callers
<callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey Jeff,
Not **us** non-roma folk, thank you. My family on my mother's side were a part of the
culture and none of us appreciate the folks telling us not to worry and that we don't
need to be offended.
Isaav
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 8:10 AM Jeffrey Spero via
Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
But Isaac… isn’t that what people on BOTH sides of the issue are doing? There are VERY
few Roma in the contra community, and we’ve heard from very few overall on this issue.
Mostly it’s just us non-Roma folk arguing amongst ourselves about what WE perceive how a
majority of the Roma people feel about this. And that does apply to people who are both
for and against using the term “gypsy” to describe a contradance move. Aren’t we ALL
saying what is right or wrong for people who are from another heritage?
And now I am bowing out of this controversy as it seems never-ending and very divisive.
Jeff
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Isaac Banner via
Callers <callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey John,
If the N word was also a move that somehow wasn't connected to the slur, you
wouldn't dare argue that it's different or that you should get to call it, so drop
the argument please. Just because you don't think I should be offended about the word
and how it reflects on my heritage doesn't mean you get to dictate whether I actually
am. I would ask you not to decide for others how they ought to experience and respect
their racial identity, thanks.
Isaac
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/ 
6:36 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
We're fortunate that the Town of Concord municipal parking near the Scout
House recently put in charging stations (though we had nothing to do with
the project). https://concordma.gov/2342/EV-Charging-Stations-Map
On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Richard Hart via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
A question for the group on dance transportation. Has
any dance
organization tried to get an auto charging station or stations installed at
or near dance locations?
Rich.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 8, 2019, at 9:16 AM, Isaac Banner via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey Jeff,
Not **us** non-roma folk, thank you. My family on my mother's side were a
part of the culture and none of us appreciate the folks telling us not to
worry and that we don't need to be offended.
Isaav
On Tue, Oct 8, 2019, 8:10 AM Jeffrey Spero via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
But Isaac… isn’t that what people on BOTH sides
of the issue are doing?
There are VERY few Roma in the contra community, and we’ve heard from very
few overall on this issue. Mostly it’s just us non-Roma folk arguing
amongst ourselves about what WE perceive how a majority of the Roma people
feel about this. And that does apply to people who are both for and
against using the term “gypsy” to describe a contradance move. Aren’t we
ALL saying what is right or wrong for people who are from another heritage?
And now I am bowing out of this controversy as it seems never-ending and
very divisive.
Jeff
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
On Oct 8, 2019, at 5:57 AM, Isaac Banner via
Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Hey John,
If the N word was also a move that somehow wasn't connected to the
slur, you
wouldn't dare argue that it's different or that you should get to
call it, so drop the argument please. Just because you don't think I should
be offended about the word and how it reflects on my heritage doesn't mean
you get to dictate whether I actually am. I would ask you not to decide for
others how they ought to experience and respect their racial identity,
thanks.
Isaac
_______________________________________________
List Name: Callers mailing list
List Address: Callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net
Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/callers@lists.sharedweight.net/
10:50 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy
Don,
Excellent! I will include this w/ your Mon listing.
Can you send me a link to the bus line that gets
one to Concord? I'd like to start
listing these items along w/ the basic info
& see if it shakes anything up. I know of
a few dancers somewhat locally who
drive electric cars. We're not quite ready
yet, not having 220 at the house, and we
just recently got a Prius. I had my heart
set on hydrogen, but you already heard
that story.
Thanks for having me up to call last
Monday. It was very nice to see so
many familiar faces, as we haven't
been able to get there much. Our
Fr/Sa/Su are booked, so Mon is often
just recovery time, and Judith rarely
goes to dances where I'm just dancing.
She very much dislikes not being able
to dance anymore, and that is
completely understandable.
Be well, thanks for your posts.
Paul
PS Cotuit, any interest?
Here are the open calling dates:
(fell behind a little after loosing Sandywoods/slump)
Nov 9
Dec 14
Jan 11
Feb 8
March 14
April 11
May 9
June 13
July 11
7 Oct
7 Oct
5:45 p.m.
New subject: [Organizers] contra dance gypsy & fuel consumption
While I make no representation as to quality/frequency/speed of the MBTA,
there's train service to within about a half mile of the Scout House. This
line connects folks to the greater MBTA system in Boston and towns along
the route as far NW as Fitchburg.
http://concordscouthouse.org/pages/map-directions.php .
On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 2:54 PM Paul Wilde via Callers <
callers(a)lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
<snip> However, just for an example, I believe
there
is no public transportation that will take you into Concord MA,
where the Scout House is, and where there is dancing at least
10X/mo. Correct me if I'm wrong on this. </snip>
8:43 p.m.
New subject: Fuel-efficient dancing
I've been wrestling with this concept myself, since over the last few
years I've been flying a LOT for calling, and even my local gigs require
a fair bit of driving. Where I live in Sonoma County, CA, the public
transit options for getting to gigs in the greater Bay Area are very
poor. There's a lot of dancing inside the greater Bay Area (and I'll
include Sacramento, 2 hours away, in that cluster) within easy-ish
driving distance but outside the Bay Area there's a fairly wide radius
without any substantial dance communities, so that it's roughly 6 or
more hours of driving north or south to the next island of dancing.
Carpooling definitely makes the trips to gigs more fun, but it's not
always possible.
Should we consider going to dances with out-of-town callers as a
slightly transgressive treat, like fresh raspberries in February?
Should organizers stop booking callers or bands from beyond a certain
radius? I agree that our communities should model responsible behavior.
I'm just not sure exactly what that would look like. I'm genuinely
curious, as a caller, organizer and dancer, what solutions or practices
our communities might be able to come up with that would make some kind
of a difference. Strongly encouraging carpooling certainly helps.
Maybe posting transit maps prominently at dances or on the event
websites. Other thoughts?
Are there any dance serieseses that have considered booking local talent
only to help reduce the impact of travel fuel-consumption? And giving
it yet more thought, at a moderate-sized contra dance, the caller and
band account for maybe 1 in 10 or 15 of the bodies there. Depending on
the travel habits of the crowd, the best booking habits in the world
might not make a dent. Just thinking out loud here.
Looking forward to hearing other people's thoughts on this.
Kalia Kliban in slightly-inaccessible Sebastopol, CA
8 Oct
8 Oct
3:18 a.m.
New subject: Fuel-efficient dancing
On 10/7/19 5:43 PM, Kalia Kliban via Callers wrote:
Looking forward to hearing other people's thoughts on this.
Kalia Kliban in slightly-inaccessible Sebastopol, CA
I used to maintain BACDS's page describing how to get to (and, maybe,
from) BACDS dances (<http://www.bacds.org/transit/>). It was an example
of benevolent self interest -- at the time, I had neither car nor
drivers license, and transit was how I got to and from dances. The page
can use a bit of polish (some of the restaurant options are no longer
around, and it's missing info for how to get to the Hayward contra or
San Jose First Unitarian dances).
At one point, I had prepared similar information for how to at least get
to NBCDS and NBCDS-adjacent dances (this was close to 20 years ago, so
the venues at that time would've been the Santa Rosa and San Rafael (in
the Masonic Hall) contras, plus the long-defunct contras in Sonoma,
Sebastopol, and St. Helena/Calistoga, and the long-defunct contra/family
dance in Fairfax). I had provided them to NBCDS back then, but nobody
seemed interested, and I can't blame them; transit options in Marin and
Sonoma Counties (let alone Napa County) are extremely limited if you're
not within a mile of Golden Gate Transit's 101 bus lines, or the SMART
trains today.
Including transit and neighborhood guides (local restaurants and
watering holes, etc.) isn't a lot of work, but it does require someone
to do it, and that's always a challenge. The same is true for
organizing carpooling, although there are many options
(www.groupcarpool.com and www.ridesharing.com are a couple of examples)
for helping organize ridesharing that weren't around twenty or even ten
years ago.
--Nick (in even more inaccessible Merced, CA)
1653
days inactive
1656
days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
31 comments
22 participants
participants (22)
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Adam Carlson -
Amy Wimmer -
Becky Liddle -
Bob Hofkin -
Colin Hume -
Delia Clark -
Don Veino -
flaps＠56789.ca -
Isaac Banner -
Jeffrey Spero -
John Sweeney -
Julia Whiteneck -
Kalia Kliban -
Mac Mckeever -
Martha Wild -
Nick Cuccia -
Paul Wilde -
Rich Sbardella -
Richard Hart -
Ron Blechner -
Sam Whited -
Woody Lane