3 Sep
2011
3 Sep
'11
4:14 a.m.
Hi Beth,
As I said at the beginning of my post, I apologise for
anything I may have misunderstood. It looks as though I may have not
understood exactly where you were suggesting that the lady should place
her hand. And I still don't understand statements such as "make him
pull her through the swing" and "holding on to the gent a little bit so
that he isn't the only one working during the swing". If you both keep
your own balance and work the swing with your feet, then the upper
bodies should be an effortless, relaxed symmetrical, counter-balanced,
coupling that both parties can enjoy.
I suspect we won't get any further with this discussion
unless we continue it on the dance floor. I am sure you are a wonderful
swinger and I look forward to meeting you on the dance floor somewhere,
somewhen - we vacation in the US every year and visit contra dance
weekends and local clubs as much as possible.
Yes, we do have high-energy contras in the UK - but they are
much rarer than in the US. Yes, there are lots of more sedate swingers
at the local Folk Dance Clubs - many of them are in the 70s and 80s -
and many of them swing beautifully. The regular Ceilidh dancers would
be most upset that you think them inexperienced - there are many who go
regularly to ceilidhs and are excellent dancers. And there is a much
wider variety of swings at ceilidhs, such as traveling swings and
hornpipe swings (when the music is at 80bpm instead of 120bpm the
buzz-step doesn't work - you need to do a step hop and need different
connection), plus lots of stepping.
And across all the different types of event on both sides of
the Atlantic, I generally find that there is a complete range of
swinging skills, from excellent to terrible.
As in the US, there are lots of One Night Stand type events
(barn dances (but often called ceilidhs) at weddings, parties, community
gatherings, etc.) where virtually all the attendees are beginners.
- - - - -
Marianne then said:
"I've found that the most comfortable position for my partner and me is
for us both to have our hand on the other's shoulder blade (that is to
say, on the back rather than the top of the shoulder)."
I know lots of people who find that very uncomfortable - they can't
reach, or can, but only by clamping down the man's arm. And it does,
sadly, mean that a clockwise exit from the swing is dangerous, if not
impossible.
"Push gently there"
WHY? You have just created a beautiful, relaxed symmetrical,
counter-balance with your partner, the man's right hand is on the lady's
left shoulder-blade to ensure that you stay connected when centrifugal
force increases. Why push? If you push with your back it makes the
other person's arm tired. If you push with your hand, no matter how
gently, it causes discomfort. Why push?
"the woman might have her whole arm draped down the man's with a bit of
tension pressing down"
No, you don't need to press down - it has no beneficial effect and
causes discomfort - as does putting your hand on the side of his arm and
pressing in - something that lots of ladies do - again, no benefit, lots
of discomfort!
"but I haven't seen it work well in contra unless the woman is
experienced enough to dance upright and bear her own weight"
You don't have to be experienced to dance upright and bear your own
weight. We have all been doing it since we started walking! It only
becomes a problem when beginners are taught to lean or misunderstand
terms like "give weight". I always start a buzz-step swing instructional
by getting the dancers to practise turning fast alone with a buzz-step,
so that they learn to keep their own balance.
- - - - - - -
Sorry if I sound a bit passionate about this topic, but I
love swinging, and have had so many bad experiences because of ladies
who push, pull, lean, drag, lift, squeeze, strangle, clamp, grip, dig in
or hang off the man! I have had two shoulder operations - I am hoping
that I won't have to have any more!
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events, Instructional DVDs and
Interactive Maps
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
3 Sep
3 Sep
7:36 a.m.
John Sweeney wrote:
Something needs to be holding the two of you together. The gent has
his right hand on the ladies' back. If the gent is strong and the
lady light, that is sufficient. If the lady additionally has their
left hand on the back of the the gent's right shoulder, then the lady
is doing more of the holding together and the gent can do less.
I'm not sure whether the lady helping hold the couple together is
something most experienced ladies actually do, or just something barb
and I wish they did. Trying some with my wife, she does not do it.
Jeff
holding on to the gent a little bit so that he
isn't the only one
working during the swing.
If you both keep your own balance and work the swing with your feet,
then the upper bodies should be an effortless, relaxed symmetrical,
counter-balanced, coupling that both parties can enjoy.
8:58 a.m.
you are right, it is sometimes hard to commumicate exactly what we mean physically when we
are using just words. sharedweight is good practice for us!
inexperienced was a poor choice of word for the dancers who go to (and sometimes
absolutely prefer) ceilidh type dances to other types (just like some of us prefer
contra). my experience is fairly limited and i did see a lot of stuff that was unfamiliar
to me. but there IS a real difference in that i never met anyone at a club-type dance who
was a rank beginner. so it's a difference experience. and i apologize for the use of
the word inexperienced - my bad.
the references about swinging pretty much refer to the higher-energy swings that i am used
to seeing (my local dances are full of crazy kids). it really has to be a cooperative
effort, but there are a lot of guys who swing fast and hard, and a lot of ladies who have
never been taught that they have to do anything but let the guy throw them around - and so
i hear complaints about dizziness, going too fast, rotator cuff injuries (had a friend to
had to have surgery a few years ago), shoulder and back pain, etc. i think a certain
amount of this comes because of the cross-over these days between the contra dance world
and the swing dance world. fancy figures and aerials, as attempted by swing dancers (and
banned at some contras), kind of morph into contra dancing without much consideration for
the structure of the line and the safety of the people around them. yes, the range of
skill goes from excellent to terrible. unfortunately, sometimes we have to instruct new
dancers how to protect themselves from bad dancers - without, of course, using any of
those words.
of course, i demo everything when i teach the class. even if my words may not exactly
make sense to my students, when i SHOW them and also tell them, i can generally get the
message across to anyone who's receptive. for me, in class, the important thing is to
teach them a good way to dance that will be fun and not cause injury.
anyway - interesting discussion, everyone.
barb (who is not beth)
From: info(a)contrafusion.co.uk
To: callers(a)sharedweight.net
Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:14:10 +0100
Subject: [Callers] Re Swinging
Hi Beth,
As I said at the beginning of my post, I apologise for
anything I may have misunderstood. It looks as though I may have not
understood exactly where you were suggesting that the lady should place
her hand. And I still don't understand statements such as "make him
pull her through the swing" and "holding on to the gent a little bit so
that he isn't the only one working during the swing". If you both keep
your own balance and work the swing with your feet, then the upper
bodies should be an effortless, relaxed symmetrical, counter-balanced,
coupling that both parties can enjoy.
I suspect we won't get any further with this discussion
unless we continue it on the dance floor. I am sure you are a wonderful
swinger and I look forward to meeting you on the dance floor somewhere,
somewhen - we vacation in the US every year and visit contra dance
weekends and local clubs as much as possible.
Yes, we do have high-energy contras in the UK - but they are
much rarer than in the US. Yes, there are lots of more sedate swingers
at the local Folk Dance Clubs - many of them are in the 70s and 80s -
and many of them swing beautifully. The regular Ceilidh dancers would
be most upset that you think them inexperienced - there are many who go
regularly to ceilidhs and are excellent dancers. And there is a much
wider variety of swings at ceilidhs, such as traveling swings and
hornpipe swings (when the music is at 80bpm instead of 120bpm the
buzz-step doesn't work - you need to do a step hop and need different
connection), plus lots of stepping.
And across all the different types of event on both sides of
the Atlantic, I generally find that there is a complete range of
swinging skills, from excellent to terrible.
As in the US, there are lots of One Night Stand type events
(barn dances (but often called ceilidhs) at weddings, parties, community
gatherings, etc.) where virtually all the attendees are beginners.
- - - - -
Marianne then said:
"I've found that the most comfortable position for my partner and me is
for us both to have our hand on the other's shoulder blade (that is to
say, on the back rather than the top of the shoulder)."
I know lots of people who find that very uncomfortable - they can't
reach, or can, but only by clamping down the man's arm. And it does,
sadly, mean that a clockwise exit from the swing is dangerous, if not
impossible.
"Push gently there"
WHY? You have just created a beautiful, relaxed symmetrical,
counter-balance with your partner, the man's right hand is on the lady's
left shoulder-blade to ensure that you stay connected when centrifugal
force increases. Why push? If you push with your back it makes the
other person's arm tired. If you push with your hand, no matter how
gently, it causes discomfort. Why push?
"the woman might have her whole arm draped down the man's with a bit of
tension pressing down"
No, you don't need to press down - it has no beneficial effect and
causes discomfort - as does putting your hand on the side of his arm and
pressing in - something that lots of ladies do - again, no benefit, lots
of discomfort!
"but I haven't seen it work well in contra unless the woman is
experienced enough to dance upright and bear her own weight"
You don't have to be experienced to dance upright and bear your own
weight. We have all been doing it since we started walking! It only
becomes a problem when beginners are taught to lean or misunderstand
terms like "give weight". I always start a buzz-step swing instructional
by getting the dancers to practise turning fast alone with a buzz-step,
so that they learn to keep their own balance.
- - - - - - -
Sorry if I sound a bit passionate about this topic, but I
love swinging, and have had so many bad experiences because of ladies
who push, pull, lean, drag, lift, squeeze, strangle, clamp, grip, dig in
or hang off the man! I have had two shoulder operations - I am hoping
that I won't have to have any more!
Happy dancing,
John
John Sweeney, Dancer, England john(a)modernjive.com 01233 625 362 &
07802 940 574
http://www.modernjive.com for Modern Jive Events, Instructional DVDs and
Interactive Maps
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent
_______________________________________________
Callers mailing list
Callers(a)sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
10:01 a.m.
John Wrote:
It looks as though I may have not
understood exactly where you were suggesting that the lady should place
her hand. And I still don't understand statements
such as "make him
pull her through the swing" and "holding on to the gent a little bit so
that he isn't the only one working during the swing". If you both keep
your own balance and work the swing with your feet, then the upper
bodies should be an effortless, relaxed symmetrical, counter-balanced,
coupling that both parties can enjoy.
I suspect we won't get any further with this discussion
unless we continue it on the dance floor.
This is a wonderful example of why psychomotor skills cannot be taught
solely with words.
I see swinging as a complex skill that is learned and re-learned, primarily
on the dance floor and, sometimes, in workshop settings. We need continuing
education in this instance. I would gently suggest that this skill is *not
*one that can be addressed well in the optional first-timer's orientation.
The need is community-wide and too much information on someone's first night
can be very disheartening to some learners. I do teach the swing in
orientations but I keep it very simple and introduce it by looking at my
watch about 10 minutes into the orientation and telling the group that "we
seem to have covered all of the basics so I'm going to use this extra time
to show you one figure that is pretty unique to contra dance. It's called
the 'buzz-step swing.'" When I am asked about other figures (often the hey)
I just assure the questioner that their more experienced partner will show
them what to do during the dance.
John also wrote:
Sorry if I sound a bit passionate about
this topic, but I
love swinging, and have had so many bad experiences because of ladies
who push, pull, lean, drag, lift, squeeze, strangle, clamp, grip, dig in
or hang off the man!
Notice that most of the words used above to describe problems with swinging
can reasonably be traced to nervous tension in a newcomer. Most of the
complaints I hear about dancing with first-timers can be attributed to the
newcomer's low confidence and their fear of doing something wrong. This is
a problem that can be addressed, without adding more information--which is
likely to *increase *the tension for some dancers. Putting newcomers at
ease and building their confidence makes them a lot more fun to dance with!
It also makes them more open to learning.
This is why it is so important to finish a first-timer's orientation on
time, giving everyone the feeling that they have learned all of the skills
they need in order to partner with the regulars and to be successful.
Just a thought,
Greg McKenzie
4617
days inactive
4617
days old
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
3 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
barb kirchner -
Greg McKenzie -
Jeff Kaufman -
John Sweeney