_______________________________________________I don’t recall when I turned the Berkeley dance into a series that used non-gendered terms, but we accepted it was early in the rage. Prior to hearing about using these terms I used Men and Women. I didn’t use ladies and gents as I didn’t want to use terms that were historically class based. A dancer caught me in a private moment and after asking me why told me for him and friends men and women were seen as a gender, ladies and gents were roles, thus more comfortable to hear. I switched back to ladies and gents, realizing they had lost much of the class meaning.
When I searching for non-gendered terms I found a list, a survey of non-gendered terms being used. I think from it came from Amherst College. The ones I remember were Jets & Rubies. “Jets,” I thought? Uh, “When you’re a Jet, You’re a Jet?” Or is it a Jet spewing contrails? No. A jet is a gem stone. Never knew that. Jets and Rubies didn’t work for me.
Then there were Trees and Squirrels. I like that one. Used them for a couple months. Too lighthearted.
Finally landed on Larks and Ravens. Lasted a couple years until Ravens lost favor and we went to Larks and Robins.
I am glad it seems Larks and Robins are becoming the standard.
When working in elementary schools, for years I used Red Birds and Blue Birds, so Larks and Robins fit quite well.
I still use Gents and Ladies in communities that prefer those terms.
Cheers,
~Erik Hoffman
Oakland, CA
From: Gabrielle Taylor via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2023 5:57 AM
To: Jim Thaxter <jathaxter47@gmail.com>
Cc: Peghesley <peghesley@cox.net>; Shared Weight Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')
As a member of the LGBT community, my view (personal, from talking to others, and from votes in local contra dances in Western Massachusetts) is it's very good to have a consistent term that isn't inherently gendered.
After local debate and dance-specific polls, we've been using larks and robins/ravens here since about 2018, and I think it's been a big improvement over ladies/gents. Larks and robins are my personal preference, since it's what everyone here is used to, and I at least don't have enough bird knowledge to get confused about robins or larks having some inherent gendering. I don't have any cultural stance against positional calling, but the confusion of "lefts allemande right" seems a lot worse than learning new terms.
Thanks,
Gabrielle
On Feb 9, 2023, at 13:45, Jim Thaxter via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Just a thought, but has anyone checked with the lgbtq community about what terms they would like to have used?
Another thought, someone mentioned earlier in the thread that the terminology issue had been discussed thoroughly some time ago and the decision had been made to go with the birds. I don’t remember seeing or hearing about a general survey sent out to all the CDSS affiliates or any other general list of dance groups around the country or world vetting that decision
Personally, I’m exploring positional calling. Just my gut feeling, but I think fewer people would be challenged by right/left directional calls than by being called bird names.
Jim Thaxter
Columbia, MO
On Thu, Feb 9, 2023 at 6:31 AM Amy Cann via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
Since no one else has mentioned this, I'll just say that my entire
personal difficulty with birds comes from fairy tales and ornithology.
When we say "robin" we are mostly thinking about that bird with the
"red breast", right? Not something kinda reddish-brownish? That's the
male. In my childhood I read any number of books with
anthropomorphised birds, and Mister Robin Redbreast was male. In a
bunch of the stories there was also small, sweet-singing female lark.
Add to that that in the states the robin is a different bird from in
the UK, and much larger, I've got two good reasons to think of the
robin as being the "male" role. My brain weighs the imagery and
memories against that silly little detail of starting with "R" or "L"
and defaults obstinately to the exact wrong conclusion every time.
EVERY time. It's somewhat maddening. But "Ravens" was even worse,
because ravens are black and men in formal clothing dress in black, so
I guess things are better now??
Whew. Change is hard.
On 2/9/23, Peghesley via Contra Callers
<contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Bree, I’m making the same change as well and am calling without reference to
> role and don’t need bird terms. Louise Siddons’ position is a compelling
> one.
>
> Peg Hesley
> www.peghesley.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone using voice recognition
>
>> On Feb 8, 2023, at 7:04 PM, Bree Kalb via Contra Callers
>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I made the same changes Chrissy did and for the same reason. I think it
>> was 4-5 years ago when I switched from M and W to Gents and Ladies. And
>> it seems to me that almost all the local callers did the same.
>>
>> ( Now I’m calling without reference to gender or role. Louise Siddons
>> booklet “Dance the Whole Dance” from CDSS describes well what many of us
>> are learning to do.)
>>
>> If it matters, my dance community is in a progressive/liberal area, so
>> calling styles here might be different than in other places.
>>
>> Bree Kalb
>> Carrboro, NC
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 8:18 PM Jacob or Nancy Bloom via Contra Callers
>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> At the Ralph Page Legacy day last month, Chrissy Fowler did a session in
>>> which she called dances as she called them at different times in her
>>> career. In it, she talked about how, at one point, she and other female
>>> callers were insisting on the term "women" because they weren't ladies,
>>> and then several years later they were insisting on the term "ladies"
>>> because that was understood to be the name of a role.
>>>
>>> I can't give a year when it happened, but I do believe I remember a time
>>> when at least some callers were making it explicitly clear that the terms
>>> Gents and Ladies referred to roles, and anybody could dance either role.
>>>
>>> Jacob
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 2:29 PM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers
>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I believe it’s in Myrtle Wilhite’s Lullaby of the Swing and other contra
>>>> dances, tunes, waltzes, and essays (Madison, WI, 1993). I can’t lay my
>>>> hand on my copy at the moment, but perhaps someone else has one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tony Parkes
>>>>
>>>> Billerica, Mass.
>>>>
>>>> www.hands4.com
>>>>
>>>> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century
>>>>
>>>> (available now)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Mary Collins <nativedae@gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 2:11 PM
>>>> To: Jeff Kaufman <jeff@alum.swarthmore.edu>
>>>> Cc: Tony Parkes <tony@hands4.com>; Joe Harrington
>>>> <contradancerjoe@gmail.com>; contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jeff, me too...if you find it, share please.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> mary
>>>>
>>>> "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who
>>>> couldn't hear the music." - Nietzsche
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about
>>>> learning to dance in the rain!” ~ unknown
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:58 AM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers
>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Aside: does anyone have a copy of the "I am not a lady" essay? I'd be
>>>>> interested to read it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:54 AM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers
>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe Harrington wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > When I started dancing in the late 1980s… Callers were taking the
>>>>>> > revolutionary step of not calling "men" and "women" but rather using
>>>>>> > "ladies" and "gents", to signal that switching roles was ok, since
>>>>>> > nobody referred to themselves as a "lady" or a "gent" in casual
>>>>>> > conversation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where was this, Joe? And are you talking about contra callers (rather
>>>>>> than ECD)? I can only speak about the NYC area in the 1960s and early
>>>>>> ’70s, and New England starting in the late ’60s and continuing to the
>>>>>> present. In both regions, square/contra callers (contras were a
>>>>>> subcategory of square dance until around 1975) universally used
>>>>>> “gents/ladies.” (I believe ECD teachers have always used “men/women,”
>>>>>> presumably emulating Playford and Cecil Sharp.) AFAIK, northeastern
>>>>>> callers pretty consistently used “gents/ladies” until some of them
>>>>>> started to move away from gender-related terms. Tolman and Page’s
>>>>>> Country Dance Book (1937) uses “gents/ladies,” as do most of the other
>>>>>> standard American dance books from the 1900s to the 1950s (a few,
>>>>>> aimed at schoolteachers, use “boys/girls”).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know of no region where callers changed from “men/women” to
>>>>>> “gents/ladies.” I know that some callers, beginning I think in the
>>>>>> ’80s, changed from “gents/ladies” to “men/women,” feeling that
>>>>>> “gentlemen” and “ladies” smacked of classism. (One female caller, in
>>>>>> an essay titled “I am not a lady,” requested that other callers not
>>>>>> use her contra compositions if they adhered to “gents/ladies.”) As an
>>>>>> amateur (= lover) of dance history, I would like to know about past
>>>>>> changes of which I was unaware.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tony Parkes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Billerica, Mass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.hands4.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (available now)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net