I’m seeing only one actual contra dance move being suggested as a No-No [shadow swing, separate controversy], and the rest are transitions.


Love it!  I’m all about transitions!


Penn Fix used to do a dance camp workshop called “Gagged by a Contra”, which included transitions that an experienced dancer might find, at first glance, to be awkward. But inexperienced dancers had no problem feeling the flow. The point of enlightenment being, of course, that expectation could be the problem.


Examples:

 - swing into a RH chain: smooth it out by adjusting the timing & direction of the ejection from the swing to “aim” toward the chaIn across

 - RH chain into swing: evolve the courtesy turn into a swing [can be lots of fun if it’s your partner]

 - RH hey into swing: another “melt-down”


There are many examples that experienced dancers just do automatically, and lead their partners smoothly from one move into the next. And demonstrate why “Lead” and “Follow” are not role names in contra dancing, but instead a relationship between dancers of different experience, attitude, and intent (but that’s another topic and another discussion)


But some transitions would never ever be even remotely approaching the possibility of being suggested as perhaps maybe being considered by the Olympic Committee.


I guess I’m suggesting that we reject “illegal” dance move transitions as have been suggested, and only consider “uncomfortable” transitions.

Maybe rule as "illegal" moves where the hand is already busy, like "RH star this couple, then RH star the next". 


Yet there are popular dances that include just that kind of feature: moving a RH star with one 4-some to a RH star with another pair, moving as a pair from one star to another.  GAACK! 


"Comfortable" transitions would be those the dance flow and the music suggest. That leads into a future post about contra dancing degenerating into the MUC


[sorry, MUC ==  Modern Urban Contra]




On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 6:09 PM <contracallers-request@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Neal Schlein)
   2. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Angela DeCarlis)
   3. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Julian Blechner)
   4. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Elizabeth Bloom Albert)
   5. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Elizabeth Bloom Albert)
   6. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Tepfer, Seth)
   7. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Alexandra Deis-Lauby)
   8. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Elizabeth Bloom Albert)
   9. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Maia McCormick)
  10. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Julian Blechner)
  11. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Mac Mckeever)
  12. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Robert Livingston)
  13. Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos (Claire Baffaut)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 01:14:28 -0600
From: Neal Schlein <nschlein@gmail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: sjapartments@gmail.com
Cc: New Contra Callers List <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID:
        <CAL124sJrtCvbSZLeStuC0Hm7wsM2E3qsJgTf_i6_so6oWGaDFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/related;
        boundary="0000000000000bab2e061efe8c28"

I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost any
sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.

However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I
like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens
solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does
not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in
Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples
include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right
and left thru.)

Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar dances
would not count because they are full and discrete actions that are
specifically
accounted for in the flow and timing.

Neal Schlein
Librarian, MSLIS


On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can often
> replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this
>> (much less extensive) list of figures + timings
>> <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>,
>> in case it's useful to anyone!
>>
>> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and pass
>> through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x and
>> right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and are
>> often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a
>> pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top
>> of it.)
>> --
>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>> 917.279.8194
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every
>>> possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a
>>> set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s
>>> interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I
>>> hope this someday sees the light of day.
>>>
>>> —jh—
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>>>>
>>>> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with a
>>>> CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment
>>>> style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo.
>>>> (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand
>>>> around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>>>>
>>>> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in part
>>>> because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn figure)
>>>> followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>>>>
>>>> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest of
>>>> the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>>>>>
>>>>> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>>>>>
>>>>> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>>>>>
>>>>> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <
>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    - A right chain INTO a swing
>>>>>>    - A swing into a circle right
>>>>>>    - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Plenty other bad flow examples
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
>>>>>> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature> Book
>>>>>> time to meet with me
>>>>>> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> *From:* Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <
>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
>>>>>> *To:* New Contra Callers List <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>> *Subject:* [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a
>>>>>> phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances
>>>>>> with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of
>>>>>> the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across
>>>>>> can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the
>>>>>> do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.
>>>>>> Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a
>>>>>> choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can
>>>>>> work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across
>>>>>> then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to
>>>>>> pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can
>>>>>> be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same
>>>>>> way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction
>>>>>> all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday
>>>>>> and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a
>>>>>> personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between
>>>>>> figures.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
>>>>>> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that
>>>>>> significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider
>>>>>> Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>> > My list so far:
>>>>>> > 1. do-si-do across
>>>>>> > 2. right chain after a swing
>>>>>> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
>>>>>> > 4. Shadow swings
>>>>>> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 08:39:55 -0400
From: Angela DeCarlis <aedecarlis@gmail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: Neal Schlein <nschlein@gmail.com>
Cc: sjapartments@gmail.com, New Contra Callers List
        <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID:
        <CA+h6_BbXV_i04AR5_UnAvmiC_V5pZdN5Q+m=P+02UnLT7GECwA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/related;
        boundary="000000000000fd9547061f031715"

Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think
it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say
I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.

For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances
that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical
dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be
okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a
dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.

There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre ones,
honestly.

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost any
> sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>
> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I
> like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens
> solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does
> not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in
> Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples
> include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right
> and left thru.)
>
> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar dances
> would not count because they are full and discrete actions that are specifically
> accounted for in the flow and timing.
>
> Neal Schlein
> Librarian, MSLIS
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can often
>> replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this
>>> (much less extensive) list of figures + timings
>>> <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>,
>>> in case it's useful to anyone!
>>>
>>> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and pass
>>> through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x and
>>> right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and are
>>> often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a
>>> pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top
>>> of it.)
>>> --
>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>> 917.279.8194
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <
>>> contradancerjoe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every
>>>> possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a
>>>> set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s
>>>> interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I
>>>> hope this someday sees the light of day.
>>>>
>>>> —jh—
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>>>>>
>>>>> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with a
>>>>> CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment
>>>>> style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo.
>>>>> (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand
>>>>> around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in part
>>>>> because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn figure)
>>>>> followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest of
>>>>> the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <
>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>    - A right chain INTO a swing
>>>>>>>    - A swing into a circle right
>>>>>>>    - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Plenty other bad flow examples
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
>>>>>>> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature> Book
>>>>>>> time to meet with me
>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>> *From:* Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
>>>>>>> *To:* New Contra Callers List <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>> *Subject:* [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a
>>>>>>> phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances
>>>>>>> with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of
>>>>>>> the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across
>>>>>>> can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the
>>>>>>> do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.
>>>>>>> Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a
>>>>>>> choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can
>>>>>>> work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across
>>>>>>> then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to
>>>>>>> pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can
>>>>>>> be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same
>>>>>>> way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction
>>>>>>> all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday
>>>>>>> and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a
>>>>>>> personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between
>>>>>>> figures.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
>>>>>>> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that
>>>>>>> significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider
>>>>>>> Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>> > My list so far:
>>>>>>> > 1. do-si-do across
>>>>>>> > 2. right chain after a swing
>>>>>>> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
>>>>>>> > 4. Shadow swings
>>>>>>> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 09:29:13 -0400
From: Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: Angela DeCarlis <aedecarlis@gmail.com>
Cc: sjapartments@gmail.com, New Contra Callers List
        <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID:
        <CAKH17mQNakaX0jUcBsv8aTvkJJYvcUhyW=R6atby3TFSO3erTw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/related;
        boundary="00000000000041a929061f03c81e"

My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with meh
flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.

In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think
> it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say
> I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.
>
> For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances
> that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical
> dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be
> okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a
> dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.
>
> There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre ones,
> honestly.
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost any
>> sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>>
>> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I
>> like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens
>> solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does
>> not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in
>> Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples
>> include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right
>> and left thru.)
>>
>> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar dances
>> would not count because they are full and discrete actions that are specifically
>> accounted for in the flow and timing.
>>
>> Neal Schlein
>> Librarian, MSLIS
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can often
>>> replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this
>>>> (much less extensive) list of figures + timings
>>>> <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>,
>>>> in case it's useful to anyone!
>>>>
>>>> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and
>>>> pass through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x
>>>> and right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and
>>>> are often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a
>>>> pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top
>>>> of it.)
>>>> --
>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <
>>>> contradancerjoe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every
>>>>> possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a
>>>>> set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s
>>>>> interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I
>>>>> hope this someday sees the light of day.
>>>>>
>>>>> —jh—
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with
>>>>>> a CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment
>>>>>> style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo.
>>>>>> (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand
>>>>>> around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in
>>>>>> part because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn
>>>>>> figure) followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest of
>>>>>> the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    - A right chain INTO a swing
>>>>>>>>    - A swing into a circle right
>>>>>>>>    - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Plenty other bad flow examples
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
>>>>>>>> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature> Book
>>>>>>>> time to meet with me
>>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>> *From:* Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
>>>>>>>> *To:* New Contra Callers List <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a
>>>>>>>> phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances
>>>>>>>> with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of
>>>>>>>> the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across
>>>>>>>> can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the
>>>>>>>> do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.
>>>>>>>> Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a
>>>>>>>> choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can
>>>>>>>> work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across
>>>>>>>> then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to
>>>>>>>> pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can
>>>>>>>> be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same
>>>>>>>> way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction
>>>>>>>> all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday
>>>>>>>> and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a
>>>>>>>> personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between
>>>>>>>> figures.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
>>>>>>>> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that
>>>>>>>> significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider
>>>>>>>> Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>> > My list so far:
>>>>>>>> > 1. do-si-do across
>>>>>>>> > 2. right chain after a swing
>>>>>>>> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
>>>>>>>> > 4. Shadow swings
>>>>>>>> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 14:32:13 -0500
From: Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>
Cc: sjapartments@gmail.com, New Contra Callers List
        <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID:
        <CAKNRm1WHPQ4ZUFthaFm7131r7FbsvGEni18t0Q49AGJM4N9KnA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/related;
        boundary="000000000000739156061f08daac"

Please, pretty please, with sugar on top!

Please don’t call (or write) any more dances where a Half-Promenade (across
the set) is followed by a Circle to the Left! With the possible exception
of interlocking long wavy lines-- another big ugh! in my book, there is
nothing more jarring than the 1/2 Prom to a Circle Left combo

I once attended an (out-of-town) dance where three dances were called that
had that combo (three!) and in spite of all the (other) pretty good dances
and excellent dance partners, this is what I remember about that experience
to this day!

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:29 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with meh
> flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.
>
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
> He/him
> Western Mass
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think
>> it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say
>> I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.
>>
>> For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances
>> that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical
>> dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be
>> okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a
>> dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.
>>
>> There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre
>> ones, honestly.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost
>>> any sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>>>
>>> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I
>>> like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens
>>> solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does
>>> not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in
>>> Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples
>>> include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right
>>> and left thru.)
>>>
>>> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar
>>> dances would not count because they are full and discrete actions that
>>> are specifically accounted for in the flow and timing.
>>>
>>> Neal Schlein
>>> Librarian, MSLIS
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can
>>>> often replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this
>>>>> (much less extensive) list of figures + timings
>>>>> <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>,
>>>>> in case it's useful to anyone!
>>>>>
>>>>> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and
>>>>> pass through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x
>>>>> and right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and
>>>>> are often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a
>>>>> pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top
>>>>> of it.)
>>>>> --
>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <
>>>>> contradancerjoe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every
>>>>>> possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a
>>>>>> set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s
>>>>>> interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I
>>>>>> hope this someday sees the light of day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> —jh—
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with
>>>>>>> a CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment
>>>>>>> style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo.
>>>>>>> (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand
>>>>>>> around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in
>>>>>>> part because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn
>>>>>>> figure) followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest
>>>>>>> of the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>    - A right chain INTO a swing
>>>>>>>>>    - A swing into a circle right
>>>>>>>>>    - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Plenty other bad flow examples
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
>>>>>>>>> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature> Book
>>>>>>>>> time to meet with me
>>>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> *From:* Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* New Contra Callers List <
>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a
>>>>>>>>> phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances
>>>>>>>>> with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of
>>>>>>>>> the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across
>>>>>>>>> can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the
>>>>>>>>> do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.
>>>>>>>>> Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a
>>>>>>>>> choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can
>>>>>>>>> work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across
>>>>>>>>> then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to
>>>>>>>>> pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can
>>>>>>>>> be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same
>>>>>>>>> way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction
>>>>>>>>> all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday
>>>>>>>>> and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a
>>>>>>>>> personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between
>>>>>>>>> figures.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that
>>>>>>>>> significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider
>>>>>>>>> Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>> > My list so far:
>>>>>>>>> > 1. do-si-do across
>>>>>>>>> > 2. right chain after a swing
>>>>>>>>> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
>>>>>>>>> > 4. Shadow swings
>>>>>>>>> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>


--

* Elizabeth Bloom Albert *
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 14:37:59 -0500
From: Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: Alexandra Deis-Lauby <alex@villagewestdesign.com>
Cc: Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>,
        sjapartments@gmail.com, Contra Callers
        <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID:
        <CAKNRm1Wd8WW0gpHB7d2nLuGSgvMGa6JFC-cGxRvN2HsMZQUFHg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="0000000000000377be061f08ef5a"

well, that's some thinking-outside-the-box stuff, right there!
thank you Alex!

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 2:35 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby <
alex@villagewestdesign.com> wrote:

> The last time I danced one of these, I learned that if you promenade with
> the Robins passing right shoulder, this flows very well.  So if one MUST
> call it, you might change the promenade direction.
>
> Alex
>
>
> On Aug 6, 2024, at 3:32 PM, Elizabeth Bloom Albert via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Please, pretty please, with sugar on top!
> Please don’t call (or write) any more dances where a Half-Promenade
> (across the set) is followed by a Circle to the Left! With the possible
> exception of interlocking long wavy lines-- another big ugh! in my book,
> there is nothing more jarring than the 1/2 Prom to a Circle Left combo
> I once attended an (out-of-town) dance where three dances were called that
> had that combo (three!) and in spite of all the (other) pretty good dances
> and excellent dance partners, this is what I remember about that experience
> to this day!
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:29 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with meh
>> flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.
>>
>> In dance,
>> Julian Blechner
>> He/him
>> Western Mass
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think
>>> it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say
>>> I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.
>>>
>>> For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances
>>> that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical
>>> dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be
>>> okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a
>>> dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.
>>>
>>> There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre
>>> ones, honestly.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost
>>>> any sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>>>>
>>>> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what
>>>> I like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a)
>>>> happens solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and
>>>> b) does not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often
>>>> happens in Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation;
>>>> examples include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly
>>>> angled right and left thru.)
>>>>
>>>> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar
>>>> dances would not count because they are full and discrete actions that
>>>> are specifically accounted for in the flow and timing.
>>>>
>>>> Neal Schlein
>>>> Librarian, MSLIS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can
>>>>> often replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this
>>>>>> (much less extensive) list of figures + timings
>>>>>> <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>,
>>>>>> in case it's useful to anyone!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and
>>>>>> pass through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x
>>>>>> and right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and
>>>>>> are often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a
>>>>>> pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top
>>>>>> of it.)
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <
>>>>>> contradancerjoe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every
>>>>>>> possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a
>>>>>>> set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s
>>>>>>> interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I
>>>>>>> hope this someday sees the light of day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> —jh—
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move
>>>>>>>> with a CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very
>>>>>>>> of-the-moment style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have
>>>>>>>> this combo. (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s
>>>>>>>> stand around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in
>>>>>>>> part because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn
>>>>>>>> figure) followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest
>>>>>>>> of the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    - A right chain INTO a swing
>>>>>>>>>>    - A swing into a circle right
>>>>>>>>>>    - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Plenty other bad flow examples
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
>>>>>>>>>> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>>>>>>>>>> <Outlook-b31euhoh.png>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature> Book
>>>>>>>>>> time to meet with me
>>>>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* New Contra Callers List <
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a
>>>>>>>>>> phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances
>>>>>>>>>> with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of
>>>>>>>>>> the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across
>>>>>>>>>> can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the
>>>>>>>>>> do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.
>>>>>>>>>> Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a
>>>>>>>>>> choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can
>>>>>>>>>> work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across
>>>>>>>>>> then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to
>>>>>>>>>> pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can
>>>>>>>>>> be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same
>>>>>>>>>> way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction
>>>>>>>>>> all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday
>>>>>>>>>> and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is
>>>>>>>>>> a personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between
>>>>>>>>>> figures.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that
>>>>>>>>>> significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider
>>>>>>>>>> Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>>> > My list so far:
>>>>>>>>>> > 1. do-si-do across
>>>>>>>>>> > 2. right chain after a swing
>>>>>>>>>> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
>>>>>>>>>> > 4. Shadow swings
>>>>>>>>>> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
>
>
> --
>
> * Elizabeth Bloom Albert *
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
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>
>

--

* Elizabeth Bloom Albert *
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 19:42:15 +0000
From: "Tepfer, Seth" <labst@emory.edu>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: Alexandra Deis-Lauby <alex@villagewestdesign.com>, Elizabeth Bloom
        Albert   <ealbert75@gmail.com>
Cc: Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>,
        "sjapartments@gmail.com" <sjapartments@gmail.com>, Contra Callers
        <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID:  <BY3PR05MB832261224616965C97152245A4BF2@BY3PR05MB8322.nam
        prd05.prod.outlook.com>
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Fascinating!
That also implies if you do a promenade larks passing left, it flows nicely into a circle RIGHT




Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)

Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
[cid:28278482-52ee-4b4f-bd06-0e4ee550abed]<https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature>                Book time to meet with me<https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
________________________________
From: Elizabeth Bloom Albert via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2024 3:37 PM
To: Alexandra Deis-Lauby <alex@villagewestdesign.com>
Cc: Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>; sjapartments@gmail.com <sjapartments@gmail.com>; Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos

well, that's some thinking-outside-the-box stuff, right there!
thank you Alex!

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 2:35 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby <alex@villagewestdesign.com<mailto:alex@villagewestdesign.com>> wrote:
The last time I danced one of these, I learned that if you promenade with the Robins passing right shoulder, this flows very well.  So if one MUST call it, you might change the promenade direction.

Alex


On Aug 6, 2024, at 3:32 PM, Elizabeth Bloom Albert via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:

Please, pretty please, with sugar on top!
Please don’t call (or write) any more dances where a Half-Promenade (across the set) is followed by a Circle to the Left! With the possible exception of interlocking long wavy lines-- another big ugh! in my book, there is nothing more jarring than the 1/2 Prom to a Circle Left combo
I once attended an (out-of-town) dance where three dances were called that had that combo (three!) and in spite of all the (other) pretty good dances and excellent dance partners, this is what I remember about that experience to this day!

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:29 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:

My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with meh flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.

In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:

Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.

For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.

There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre ones, honestly.

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost any sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.

However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right and left thru.)

Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar dances would not count because they are full and discrete actions that are specifically accounted for in the flow and timing.

Neal Schlein
Librarian, MSLIS


On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can often replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2

On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this (much less extensive) list of figures + timings<https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>, in case it's useful to anyone!

(This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and pass through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x and right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and are often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top of it.)
--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194


On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe@gmail.com<mailto:contradancerjoe@gmail.com>> wrote:
Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I hope this someday sees the light of day.

—jh—


On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Jeff, impressively bad, well done!

My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with a CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo. (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)

Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in part because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn figure) followed by long lines drives me up a wall.

I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest of the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.

--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194


On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)

Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).

Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).

Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)

Jeff

On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:

  *
A right chain INTO a swing
  *
A swing into a circle right
  *
Standard right shoulder hey into a swing

Plenty other bad flow examples


Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
<Outlook-b31euhoh.png><https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature>            Book time to meet with me<https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
________________________________
From: Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
Sent: Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
To: New Contra Callers List <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
Subject: [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos

I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.  Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.

So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between figures.

Jonathan

On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
> I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider Choreographic No-Nos
> My list so far:
> 1. do-si-do across
> 2. right chain after a swing
> 3 short swings on an odd phrase
> 4. Shadow swings
> Does anyone have further suggestions?

_______________________________________________
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--
Elizabeth Bloom Albert


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To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>



--
Elizabeth Bloom Albert

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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 15:42:50 -0400
From: Alexandra Deis-Lauby <adeislauby@gmail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Cc: Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>, Elizabeth Bloom
        Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com>, sjapartments@gmail.com
Message-ID: <1D32C519-7FEC-4F4E-AB0D-3E5C3C4E1A65@gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="Apple-Mail=_4CB80BF6-38D3-4B1D-95EA-DE725444894F"

Oops I sent it from the wrong email and only a few folks got it.

The last time I danced one of these, I learned that if you promenade with the Robins passing right shoulder, this flows very well.  So if one MUST call it, you might change the promenade direction.


>
>
>> On Aug 6, 2024, at 3:32 PM, Elizabeth Bloom Albert via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Please, pretty please, with sugar on top!
>> Please don’t call (or write) any more dances where a Half-Promenade (across the set) is followed by a Circle to the Left! With the possible exception of interlocking long wavy lines-- another big ugh! in my book, there is nothing more jarring than the 1/2 Prom to a Circle Left combo
>> I once attended an (out-of-town) dance where three dances were called that had that combo (three!) and in spite of all the (other) pretty good dances and excellent dance partners, this is what I remember about that experience to this day!
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:29 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>> My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with meh flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.
>>
>> In dance,
>> Julian Blechner
>> He/him
>> Western Mass
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>> Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.
>>
>> For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.
>>
>> There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre ones, honestly.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost any sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>>
>> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right and left thru.)
>>
>> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar dances would not count because they are full and discrete actions that are specifically accounted for in the flow and timing.
>>
>> Neal Schlein
>> Librarian, MSLIS
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can often replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this (much less extensive) list of figures + timings <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>, in case it's useful to anyone!
>>
>> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and pass through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x and right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and are often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top of it.)
>> --
>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>> 917.279.8194
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe@gmail.com <mailto:contradancerjoe@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I hope this someday sees the light of day.
>>
>> —jh—
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>>
>> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with a CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo. (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>>
>> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in part because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn figure) followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>>
>> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest of the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>>
>> --
>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>> 917.279.8194
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>>
>> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>>
>> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>>
>> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:
>> A right chain INTO a swing
>> A swing into a circle right
>> Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>>
>> Plenty other bad flow examples
>>
>>
>> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
>> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>> <Outlook-b31euhoh.png> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature>                Book time to meet with me <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>   
>> From: Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>> Sent: Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
>> To: New Contra Callers List <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>>
>> Subject: [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>> 
>> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.  Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>>
>> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between figures.
>>
>> Jonathan
>>
>> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
>> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider Choreographic No-Nos
>> > My list so far:
>> > 1. do-si-do across
>> > 2. right chain after a swing
>> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
>> > 4. Shadow swings
>> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
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>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Elizabeth Bloom Albert
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net <mailto:contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net>
>
>
>
> --
> Elizabeth Bloom Albert
>

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Message: 8
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 14:47:20 -0500
From: Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: "Tepfer, Seth" <labst@emory.edu>
Cc: Alexandra Deis-Lauby <alex@villagewestdesign.com>, Julian Blechner
        <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>, "sjapartments@gmail.com"
        <sjapartments@gmail.com>, Contra Callers
        <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID:
        <CAKNRm1VuMSS1dp2GWMD8vLyGuc5VmzmQobRr387AQptWcCFWvA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/related;
        boundary="0000000000007f4bf7061f091084"

sounds like someone's gonna be writing some new dances Seth
;^)

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 2:42 PM Tepfer, Seth <labst@emory.edu> wrote:

> Fascinating!
> That also implies if you do a promenade larks passing left, it flows
> nicely into a circle RIGHT
>
>
>
> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>
> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature> Book
> time to meet with me
> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Elizabeth Bloom Albert via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 6, 2024 3:37 PM
> *To:* Alexandra Deis-Lauby <alex@villagewestdesign.com>
> *Cc:* Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>;
> sjapartments@gmail.com <sjapartments@gmail.com>; Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> *Subject:* [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>
> well, that's some thinking-outside-the-box stuff, right there!
> thank you Alex!
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 2:35 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby <
> alex@villagewestdesign.com> wrote:
>
> The last time I danced one of these, I learned that if you promenade with
> the Robins passing right shoulder, this flows very well.  So if one MUST
> call it, you might change the promenade direction.
>
> Alex
>
>
> On Aug 6, 2024, at 3:32 PM, Elizabeth Bloom Albert via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Please, pretty please, with sugar on top!
> Please don’t call (or write) any more dances where a Half-Promenade
> (across the set) is followed by a Circle to the Left! With the possible
> exception of interlocking long wavy lines-- another big ugh! in my book,
> there is nothing more jarring than the 1/2 Prom to a Circle Left combo
> I once attended an (out-of-town) dance where three dances were called that
> had that combo (three!) and in spite of all the (other) pretty good dances
> and excellent dance partners, this is what I remember about that experience
> to this day!
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:29 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with meh
> flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.
>
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
> He/him
> Western Mass
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think
> it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say
> I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.
>
> For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances
> that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical
> dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be
> okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a
> dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.
>
> There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre ones,
> honestly.
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost any
> sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>
> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I
> like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens
> solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does
> not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in
> Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples
> include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right
> and left thru.)
>
> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar dances
> would not count because they are full and discrete actions that are specifically
> accounted for in the flow and timing.
>
> Neal Schlein
> Librarian, MSLIS
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can often
> replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this
> (much less extensive) list of figures + timings
> <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>, in
> case it's useful to anyone!
>
> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and pass
> through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x and
> right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and are
> often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a
> pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top
> of it.)
> --
> Maia McCormick (she/her)
> 917.279.8194
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every
> possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a
> set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s
> interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I
> hope this someday sees the light of day.
>
> —jh—
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>
> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with a CCW
> courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment style
> preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo.
> (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand
> around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>
> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in part
> because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn figure)
> followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>
> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest of the
> dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>
> --
> Maia McCormick (she/her)
> 917.279.8194
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>
> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>
> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>
> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>
> Jeff
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>
>    - A right chain INTO a swing
>    - A swing into a circle right
>    - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>
>
> Plenty other bad flow examples
>
>
> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
> <Outlook-b31euhoh.png>
> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature> Book
> time to meet with me
> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
> *To:* New Contra Callers List <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> *Subject:* [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>
> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a phrase
> are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances with this
> that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of the
> potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across can
> be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the
> do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.
> Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a
> choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can
> work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across
> then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to
> pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can
> be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same
> way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction
> all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday
> and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>
> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a
> personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between
> figures.
>
> Jonathan
>
> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that
> significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider
> Choreographic No-Nos
> > My list so far:
> > 1. do-si-do across
> > 2. right chain after a swing
> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
> > 4. Shadow swings
> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
>
>
> --
>
> * Elizabeth Bloom Albert *
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> * Elizabeth Bloom Albert *
>


--

* Elizabeth Bloom Albert *
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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 15:48:40 -0400
From: Maia McCormick <maia.mcc@gmail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
Cc: Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID:
        <CAHUcZGMZaoq7fs2uFnyxRvLf_WPmUDR61C1-58RWWOaG43n5HQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
        boundary="000000000000446988061f091598"

Seth, sure does! Circle right flows beautifully out of a standard
promenade, R/L thru, or RH chain. See eg:
https://contra.maiamccormick.com/dances.html#barackmeobamadeus


--
Maia McCormick (she/her)
917.279.8194


On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 3:43 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Oops I sent it from the wrong email and only a few folks got it.
>
> The last time I danced one of these, I learned that if you promenade with
> the Robins passing right shoulder, this flows very well.  So if one MUST
> call it, you might change the promenade direction.
>
>
>
>>
>> On Aug 6, 2024, at 3:32 PM, Elizabeth Bloom Albert via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Please, pretty please, with sugar on top!
>> Please don’t call (or write) any more dances where a Half-Promenade
>> (across the set) is followed by a Circle to the Left! With the possible
>> exception of interlocking long wavy lines-- another big ugh! in my book,
>> there is nothing more jarring than the 1/2 Prom to a Circle Left combo
>> I once attended an (out-of-town) dance where three dances were called
>> that had that combo (three!) and in spite of all the (other) pretty good
>> dances and excellent dance partners, this is what I remember about that
>> experience to this day!
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:29 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with
>>> meh flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.
>>>
>>> In dance,
>>> Julian Blechner
>>> He/him
>>> Western Mass
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I
>>>> think it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't
>>>> say I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.
>>>>
>>>> For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances
>>>> that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical
>>>> dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be
>>>> okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a
>>>> dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.
>>>>
>>>> There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre
>>>> ones, honestly.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost
>>>>> any sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what
>>>>> I like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a)
>>>>> happens solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and
>>>>> b) does not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often
>>>>> happens in Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation;
>>>>> examples include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly
>>>>> angled right and left thru.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar
>>>>> dances would not count because they are full and discrete actions
>>>>> that are specifically accounted for in the flow and timing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Neal Schlein
>>>>> Librarian, MSLIS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can
>>>>>> often replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this
>>>>>>> (much less extensive) list of figures + timings
>>>>>>> <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>,
>>>>>>> in case it's useful to anyone!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and
>>>>>>> pass through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x
>>>>>>> and right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and
>>>>>>> are often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a
>>>>>>> pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top
>>>>>>> of it.)
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <
>>>>>>> contradancerjoe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every
>>>>>>>> possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a
>>>>>>>> set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s
>>>>>>>> interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I
>>>>>>>> hope this someday sees the light of day.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> —jh—
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move
>>>>>>>>> with a CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very
>>>>>>>>> of-the-moment style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have
>>>>>>>>> this combo. (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s
>>>>>>>>> stand around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in
>>>>>>>>> part because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn
>>>>>>>>> figure) followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest
>>>>>>>>> of the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back
>>>>>>>>>> (4).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>    - A right chain INTO a swing
>>>>>>>>>>>    - A swing into a circle right
>>>>>>>>>>>    - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Plenty other bad flow examples
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
>>>>>>>>>>> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>>>>>>>>>>> <Outlook-b31euhoh.png>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature> Book
>>>>>>>>>>> time to meet with me
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* New Contra Callers List <
>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of
>>>>>>>>>>> a phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances
>>>>>>>>>>> with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of
>>>>>>>>>>> the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across
>>>>>>>>>>> can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the
>>>>>>>>>>> do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.
>>>>>>>>>>> Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a
>>>>>>>>>>> choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can
>>>>>>>>>>> work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across
>>>>>>>>>>> then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to
>>>>>>>>>>> pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can
>>>>>>>>>>> be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same
>>>>>>>>>>> way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction
>>>>>>>>>>> all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday
>>>>>>>>>>> and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is
>>>>>>>>>>> a personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between
>>>>>>>>>>> figures.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that
>>>>>>>>>>> significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider
>>>>>>>>>>> Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>>>> > My list so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> > 1. do-si-do across
>>>>>>>>>>> > 2. right chain after a swing
>>>>>>>>>>> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
>>>>>>>>>>> > 4. Shadow swings
>>>>>>>>>>> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> * Elizabeth Bloom Albert *
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
>
> * Elizabeth Bloom Albert *
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
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Message: 10
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 16:48:52 -0400
From: Julian Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Fuerst <sjapartments@gmail.com>, New Contra Callers List
        <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID:
        <CAKH17mRumTpzqp_mk84Uc7pqQbHM6wDboCfpMvfPVG-aK2ER6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/related;
        boundary="000000000000a7477f061f09ec97"

I'd love more people to try swapping thus to "pass through, California
Twirl to face in" or, at least, Right and Left through (which seems to be
slowly going out of fashion?)

In dance,
Julian Blechner

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:32 PM Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Please, pretty please, with sugar on top!
>
> Please don’t call (or write) any more dances where a Half-Promenade
> (across the set) is followed by a Circle to the Left! With the possible
> exception of interlocking long wavy lines-- another big ugh! in my book,
> there is nothing more jarring than the 1/2 Prom to a Circle Left combo
>
> I once attended an (out-of-town) dance where three dances were called that
> had that combo (three!) and in spite of all the (other) pretty good dances
> and excellent dance partners, this is what I remember about that experience
> to this day!
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:29 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with meh
>> flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.
>>
>> In dance,
>> Julian Blechner
>> He/him
>> Western Mass
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think
>>> it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say
>>> I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.
>>>
>>> For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances
>>> that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical
>>> dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be
>>> okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a
>>> dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.
>>>
>>> There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre
>>> ones, honestly.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <
>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost
>>>> any sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>>>>
>>>> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what
>>>> I like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a)
>>>> happens solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and
>>>> b) does not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often
>>>> happens in Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation;
>>>> examples include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly
>>>> angled right and left thru.)
>>>>
>>>> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar
>>>> dances would not count because they are full and discrete actions that
>>>> are specifically accounted for in the flow and timing.
>>>>
>>>> Neal Schlein
>>>> Librarian, MSLIS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can
>>>>> often replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this
>>>>>> (much less extensive) list of figures + timings
>>>>>> <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>,
>>>>>> in case it's useful to anyone!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and
>>>>>> pass through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x
>>>>>> and right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and
>>>>>> are often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a
>>>>>> pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top
>>>>>> of it.)
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <
>>>>>> contradancerjoe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every
>>>>>>> possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a
>>>>>>> set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s
>>>>>>> interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I
>>>>>>> hope this someday sees the light of day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> —jh—
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move
>>>>>>>> with a CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very
>>>>>>>> of-the-moment style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have
>>>>>>>> this combo. (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s
>>>>>>>> stand around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in
>>>>>>>> part because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn
>>>>>>>> figure) followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest
>>>>>>>> of the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>    - A right chain INTO a swing
>>>>>>>>>>    - A swing into a circle right
>>>>>>>>>>    - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Plenty other bad flow examples
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
>>>>>>>>>> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature> Book
>>>>>>>>>> time to meet with me
>>>>>>>>>> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
>>>>>>>>>> *To:* New Contra Callers List <
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a
>>>>>>>>>> phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances
>>>>>>>>>> with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of
>>>>>>>>>> the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across
>>>>>>>>>> can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the
>>>>>>>>>> do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.
>>>>>>>>>> Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a
>>>>>>>>>> choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can
>>>>>>>>>> work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across
>>>>>>>>>> then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to
>>>>>>>>>> pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can
>>>>>>>>>> be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same
>>>>>>>>>> way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction
>>>>>>>>>> all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday
>>>>>>>>>> and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is
>>>>>>>>>> a personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between
>>>>>>>>>> figures.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that
>>>>>>>>>> significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider
>>>>>>>>>> Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>>> > My list so far:
>>>>>>>>>> > 1. do-si-do across
>>>>>>>>>> > 2. right chain after a swing
>>>>>>>>>> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
>>>>>>>>>> > 4. Shadow swings
>>>>>>>>>> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list --
>>>>>>>>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
>
>
> --
>
> * Elizabeth Bloom Albert *
>
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------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 20:56:05 +0000 (UTC)
From: Mac Mckeever <macmck@ymail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com>,       Julian
        Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Fuerst <sjapartments@gmail.com>, New Contra Callers List
        <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID: <2022437513.4636708.1722977765690@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I always try to do this when the transition to the next move works better (like a circle L)  If the next move is a hey or chain, I keep it as a R&L thru

Mac






On Tuesday, August 6, 2024 at 03:49:10 PM CDT, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:





I'd love more people to try swapping thus to "pass through, California Twirl to face in" or, at least, Right and Left through (which seems to be slowly going out of fashion?)

In dance,
Julian Blechner

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:32 PM Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com> wrote:
> Please, pretty please, with sugar on top!
>
> Please don’t call (or write) any more dances where a Half-Promenade (across the set) is followed by a Circle to the Left! With the possible exception of interlocking long wavy lines-- another big ugh! in my book, there is nothing more jarring than the 1/2 Prom to a Circle Left combo
>
> I once attended an (out-of-town) dance where three dances were called that had that combo (three!) and in spite of all the (other) pretty good dances and excellent dance partners, this is what I remember about that experience to this day!
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:29 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>> My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with meh flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.
>>
>> In dance,
>> Julian Blechner
>> He/him
>> Western Mass
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>> Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.
>>>
>>> For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.
>>>
>>> There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre ones, honestly.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost any sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>>>>
>>>> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right and left thru.)
>>>>
>>>> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar dances would not count because they are full and discrete actions that are specifically accounted for in the flow and timing. 
>>>>
>>>> Neal Schlein
>>>> Librarian, MSLIS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can often replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2 
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this (much less extensive) list of figures + timings, in case it's useful to anyone!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and pass through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x and right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and are often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top of it.)
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I hope this someday sees the light of day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> —jh—
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with a CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo. (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in part because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn figure) followed by long lines drives me up a wall. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest of the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh. 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>>>>>>> 917.279.8194
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>     *  
>>>>>>>>>> A right chain INTO a swing
>>>>>>>>>>     *  
>>>>>>>>>> A swing into a circle right
>>>>>>>>>>     *  
>>>>>>>>>> Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Plenty other bad flow examples
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Book time to meet with me
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> From: Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: New Contra Callers List <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.  Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between figures.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider Choreographic No-Nos
>>>>>>>>>>> My list so far:
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. do-si-do across
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. right chain after a swing
>>>>>>>>>>> 3 short swings on an odd phrase
>>>>>>>>>>> 4. Shadow swings
>>>>>>>>>>> Does anyone have further suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
>
>
> --
>  
> Elizabeth Bloom Albert
>
>
>
>
>

_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 21:23:23 +0000 (UTC)
From: Robert Livingston <rlivngstn@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com>,       Julian
        Blechner <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Fuerst <sjapartments@gmail.com>, New Contra Callers List
        <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID: <1246781528.2405301.1722979403639@mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
        boundary="----=_Part_2405300_2065253085.1722979403639"

 "pass thru-partner trade"
Bob Livingston

    On Tuesday, August 6, 2024 at 04:49:32 PM EDT, Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote: 

 I'd love more people to try swapping thus to "pass through, California Twirl to face in" or, at least, Right and Left through (which seems to be slowly going out of fashion?)
In dance,Julian Blechner
On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:32 PM Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com> wrote:


Please, pretty please, with sugar ontop!

Please don’t call (or write) any moredances where a Half-Promenade (across the set) is followed by a Circle to theLeft! With the possible exception of interlocking long wavy lines-- another bigugh! in my book, there is nothing more jarring than the 1/2 Prom to a Circle Leftcombo

I once attended an (out-of-town)dance where three dances were called that had that combo (three!) and in spiteof all the (other) pretty good dances and excellent dance partners, this iswhat I remember about that experience to this day!

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:29 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:


My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with meh flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.

In dance,
Julian Blechner
He/him
Western Mass

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:


Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.

For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.

There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre ones, honestly.

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost any sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right and left thru.)
Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar dances would not count because they are full and discrete actions that are specifically accounted for in the flow and timing. 
Neal SchleinLibrarian, MSLIS


On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

Depending on the flow of the dance, balance and box the gnat  can often replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2 
On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this (much less extensive) list of figures + timings, in case it's useful to anyone!
(This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and pass through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x and right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and are often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top of it.)
--Maia McCormick (she/her)917.279.8194

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe@gmail.com> wrote:

Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I hope this someday sees the light of day.
—jh—


On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with a CCW courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment style preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo. (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in part because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn figure) followed by long lines drives me up a wall. 
I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest of the dance is really exceptional, ehhhh. 

--Maia McCormick (she/her)917.279.8194

On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
Jeff
On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:


   - A right chain INTO a swing
   - A swing into a circle right
   - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing

Plenty other bad flow examples


Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
|  |  | Book time to meet with me |  |

From: Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
To: New Contra Callers List <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Subject: [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a phrase are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances with this that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of the potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across can be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.  Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.

So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between figures.

Jonathan

On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
> I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider Choreographic No-Nos
> My list so far:
> 1. do-si-do across
> 2. right chain after a swing
> 3 short swings on an odd phrase
> 4. Shadow swings
> Does anyone have further suggestions?

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--
Elizabeth Bloom Albert



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Message: 13
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 20:06:53 -0500
From: Claire Baffaut <cbaffaut@gmail.com>
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
To: Robert Livingston <rlivngstn@yahoo.com>
Cc: Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com>, Julian Blechner
        <juliancallsdances@gmail.com>, Michael Fuerst
        <sjapartments@gmail.com>, New Contra Callers List
        <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Message-ID:
        <CADNUGEWDAfdi7RB1SwQp9_jOE8f+cXTYpdqUgwfXDAu2TSyYeg@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/related;
        boundary="0000000000003a617e061f0d8735"

It's interesting to me that an important aspect of a good contra dance is
that it flows well. That's when we are in person. When we were dancing on
zoom, I developed  an appreciation for the sudden changes of direction. I
guess that particular action was taking the place of all the dynamics and
interactions we have with partners and neighbors in an in-person dance.
Claire Baffaut, Columbia, MO.

On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 16:30 Robert Livingston via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> "pass thru-partner trade"
>
> Bob Livingston
>
> On Tuesday, August 6, 2024 at 04:49:32 PM EDT, Julian Blechner via Contra
> Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>
> I'd love more people to try swapping thus to "pass through, California
> Twirl to face in" or, at least, Right and Left through (which seems to be
> slowly going out of fashion?)
>
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:32 PM Elizabeth Bloom Albert <ealbert75@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Please, pretty please, with sugar on top!
>
> Please don’t call (or write) any more dances where a Half-Promenade
> (across the set) is followed by a Circle to the Left! With the possible
> exception of interlocking long wavy lines-- another big ugh! in my book,
> there is nothing more jarring than the 1/2 Prom to a Circle Left combo
>
> I once attended an (out-of-town) dance where three dances were called that
> had that combo (three!) and in spite of all the (other) pretty good dances
> and excellent dance partners, this is what I remember about that experience
> to this day!
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 8:29 AM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> My biggest nono is "too much clockwise". If moves are awkward or with meh
> flow, that's not a health or safety thing. Whereas getting dizzy is.
>
> In dance,
> Julian Blechner
> He/him
> Western Mass
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 8:40 AM Angela DeCarlis via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Surprised no one's mentioned interlocking long wavy lines, yet — I think
> it's relatively well-known that Lisa Greenleaf hates this move! Can't say
> I'm a huge fan, either, but it has its moments.
>
> For my two-cents, butterfly whirls are on thin ice! I'll program dances
> that include this figure with a partner on rare occasion, and symmetrical
> dances with both a partner and neighbor whirl could be novel enough to be
> okay (???) on a cold day, but I think I would essentially never call a
> dance with only a neighbor butterfly whirl.
>
> There are too many excellent dances to ever bother with the mediocre ones,
> honestly.
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024, 3:14 AM Neal Schlein via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> I agree with Jonathan about your existing list, and think that almost any
> sequence CAN be used if done with knowledgeable intent.
>
> However, for the general list of things to avoid I would nominate what I
> like to call “fudge down the line,” which is any adjustment that a) happens
> solely because the sequence doesn’t fully progress the couples and b) does
> not flow naturally from the existing movement.  (This most often happens in
> Beckett dances or those substantially in Beckett formation; examples
> include a 2 count sideways slide along the line or a slightly angled right
> and left thru.)
>
> Notably, the 4 beat slide in “With Thanks to the Dean” and similar dances
> would not count because they are full and discrete actions that are specifically
> accounted for in the flow and timing.
>
> Neal Schlein
> Librarian, MSLIS
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:28 PM Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Depending on the flow of the dance,  balance and box the gnat  can often
> replace  dsd and shoulder rounds 1 1/2
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:17 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> I don't have Bob's list handy, but I cribbed heavily from it to make this
> (much less extensive) list of figures + timings
> <https://contra.maiamccormick.com/assets/pdfs/esc-choreo-figures.pdf>, in
> case it's useful to anyone!
>
> (This reminds me of some more things I don't like, ha. Circle L and pass
> through to swing -- IME the swing always gets truncated. Dosido 1.5x and
> right shoulder round 1.5x don't quiiite fit in 8 counts of music and are
> often frustrating. And I don't call couples' dosidos anymore, they're a
> pain to execute correctly unless everyone in the hall is EXTREMELY on top
> of it.)
> --
> Maia McCormick (she/her)
> 917.279.8194
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 12:02 AM Joe Harrington <contradancerjoe@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Is Bob Isaacs in the house?  He has a giant spreadsheet with every
> possible move transition and a count of the number of times it occurs in a
> set of dances that now numbers in the hundreds or maybe a lot more.  It’s
> interesting which unlikely combinations do occur and which rarely do.  I
> hope this someday sees the light of day.
>
> —jh—
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 11:29 PM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Jeff, impressively bad, well done!
>
> My biggest pet peeve is a RH chain (or promenade, or other move with a CCW
> courtesy turn) into a circle L—though this is a very of-the-moment style
> preference, as I know plenty of the classic dances have this combo.
> (Likewise for dances where just the 1s do a figure while the 2s stand
> around, doubly so if the dance doesn’t alternate active couples.)
>
> Long lines followed by a chain is quite idiomatic—and probably in part
> because of the strength that idiom, a chain (or other courtesy turn figure)
> followed by long lines drives me up a wall.
>
> I don’t love long lines into a circle—I’ll tolerate it if the rest of the
> dance is really exceptional, ehhhh.
>
> --
> Maia McCormick (she/her)
> 917.279.8194
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 10:31 PM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Balance neighbor (4), swing partner (12)
>
> Ones dosido below while twos seesaw above (8).
>
> Long lines forward (4), swing on the side (8), long lines back (4).
>
> Circle left 1x (6) pass through (2)
>
> Jeff
>
> On Mon, Aug 5, 2024 at 9:51 PM Tepfer, Seth via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>
>    - A right chain INTO a swing
>    - A swing into a circle right
>    - Standard right shoulder hey into a swing
>
>
> Plenty other bad flow examples
>
>
> Seth Tepfer, MBA, CSM, PMP (he, him, his)
> Senior IT Manager, Emory Primate Center
>
> <https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/fcd3f5d71da848759228584d1a49babd@emory.edu?anonymous&ep=signature> Book
> time to meet with me
> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/SethTepfer@mscloud.emory.net/bookings/>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Jonathan Sivier via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> *Sent:* Monday, August 5, 2024 9:48 PM
> *To:* New Contra Callers List <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
> *Subject:* [External] [Callers] Re: Choreographic No-Nos
>
> I don't agree with your list.  Yes, swings on the first half of a phrase
> are challenging and I might try to avoid them.  There are dances with this
> that generally work fine, especially if the caller is aware of the
> potential issue and teaches and calls accordingly.  The do-si-do across can
> be a bit awkward in a crowded line, but only if everyone is doing the
> do-si-do.  If only the 1's or 2's are doing it then there is no problem.
> Shadow swings seem to be a personal preference or dislike and not really a
> choreographic issue.  I actually think that a right chain after a swing can
> work very well.  If you end the swing with the pointy hands pointing across
> then the right hands of the right hand dancers are right there ready to
> pull by.  I suppose you might say there is a momentum change, but that can
> be very welcome in a dance where everything seems to be traveling the same
> way.  Not every dance has to have continuous motion in the same direction
> all the time.  I danced a dance with that set of figures just last Friday
> and I was thinking to myself how well it seemed to work.
>
> So I see #1 and #3 as more of a challenge than a problem.  #4 is a
> personal preference and #2 seems like a perfectly fine transition between
> figures.
>
> Jonathan
>
> On 8/5/2024 7:37 PM, Michael Fuerst via Contra Callers wrote:
> > I am accumulating a  list of figures, or figure sequence that
> significant dance writers (not necessarily a majority) consider
> Choreographic No-Nos
> > My list so far:
> > 1. do-si-do across
> > 2. right chain after a swing
> > 3 short swings on an odd phrase
> > 4. Shadow swings
> > Does anyone have further suggestions?
>
> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
>
> * Elizabeth Bloom Albert *
>
> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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End of Contra Callers Digest, Vol 121, Issue 2
**********************************************