Over in English dance land, Bruce Hamilton used to describe the amount of pulling force as "about a sixpack's worth".  (He was talking about the long-armed English turn rather than the thumbs-up/bent-elbow allemande but I think it's the same thing.)

More recently he's been taking that the position that the hand *knows* the right amount of pull/connection; you can find out by putting your cupped hand around a tetherball post (or some other round pole) and turning around it with an amount of weight you find satisfactory.  The static post essentially gives you back as much firmness / connection as you put into it - and it does it without squeezing your hand or trapping your thumb.

It may also be worth pointing out that every allemande is, and every swing is, a negotiation, where you find a mutually comfortable amount of tension and of speed; you never know whether the person you've come to has a wrist / shoulder / back/ hip problem or a dizziness/vertigo problem or is just too tired to go around that fast right now.  You're obliged to pay attention to what the other person is giving you and not pull them off balance or fling them around, and you should offer only a degree of tension/connection you can tolerate.

-- Alan


________________________________________
From: Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2024 12:49 PM
To: John Sweeney
Cc: 'Shared Weight Contra Callers'
Subject: [Callers] Re: Workshop activities for helping dancers improve their skills?

Hi John et al - I am really glad to have this topic come up here, because we've been turning our attention to it recently in our Halifax group.

We had unthinkingly been telling people to lean back/rely on each other in the intro, to teach the concept of a strong connection (we would teach it using an allemande).  This was language that went back well over a decade to our previous caller, and we never questioned it.

But I did see a discussion on this listserv e on "giving weight" at some point in the last year, and realized that this "leaning back" was not an optimal way to describe it.

We do have a number of dancers in our group who still have "limp noodle" phenomenon, along with many new dancers each month, so we are trying to think - how can we better and more clearly teach this concept?

I reviewed and am going to try your "slight sit" method to see how it works for the group.
That said, I am not sure that that method on its own teaches giving weight - it teaches how not to pull too hard - but if I can do a slight sit without falling over on my own, then I could also do this same slight sit while having the lightest hand touch to someone else.  This would not meet my definition of "giving weight".

In trying to break down/analyze the feeling of giving weight with a friend of mine (let's start with something simple like a one-handed connection through an allemande), I decided that in actual fact, it means pulling on each other's hands.  Feel free to disagree with me, but after going into and out of the position like, 20 times in a row and each of us trying to describe what we were doing when it felt right, we both agreed we were both applying a light but constant "pulling pressure" on the other person, via the hand connection.

But - and this was key - we found that we were each pulling by a special "magic amount" that is hard to quantify.  If we don't pull at all - we get the limp noodle effect.   If we pull too hard, it feels like some sort of unpleasant arm-wrestle-ish thing.

So last dance, I did try teaching it this way - we had all dancers join hand with a partner, assume allemande position, and try the following sequence:
-  not pulling on each other at all,
- pulling super hard like they were doing an arm wrestle,
- and then finding that happy medium, magic amount of "pull".
It seemed to work!
Looking at your page on "connection" John, this seems to line up with the idea of "Go for equal and opposite tension, just enough to feel each other, but not enough to move the hands from mid-way between you."

I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts on my addition of the concept of "a little bit of pulling" or "tugging".  Because this idea of "equal and opposite tension" is a little vague for the uninitiated.  How do you create this tension, exactly? "Now create tension" is not a very specific instruction for how the body must act, in order to produce the desired effect.

Then me and my friend started analyzing more involved figures like swing and courtesy turn.
My analysis was that in these two-hands-connected figures, one hand provides a slight pushing force while the other provides a slight pulling force.

In the swing, (we swing with an elbow connection instead of a shoulder blade connection), the hands connected at the elbows pull in towards oneself a little.
at the same time, the hands in the ballroom hold push against each other a little.

In the courtesy turn, the two hands that are hooked behind the ravens' back provide a little pull towards each other (ie the fingers of each dancer pull in towards the dancer's own elbow), while the hands joined in front push off each other a little.

Thoughts on this way of seeing "giving weight" ?
:D
I'm just experimenting with it at the moment so I would love to have input.
Kat K in Halifax
John Sweeney via Contra Callers<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Tuesday, January 16, 2024 2:47 PM
Hi Joseph,
              “Giving weight” is a highly technical term stolen from other more complex dance genres.  It is too easily misunderstood.  People actually expect you to take some of their weight!  They lean; they hang; they pull; etc.  Please don’t! :-)

              I absolutely do NOT want any of your weight! (I have enough of my own!).

People use the term without explaining this.

              “Giving weight” means controlling your centre of gravity so that you are connected to your partner.  It is much better to talk about connection.  (See also http://contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#connection ).  (More about weight in the Swing here: http://contrafusion.co.uk/Contra.html#swinging ).

              You can see a video of me demonstrating “giving weight” at https://youtu.be/Uvbp5HiCiBo?si=akxwoMu2fbUupsBm&t=137

              The exercise that I show there is one you can get dancers to try. Make them do a slight sit by themself without falling over.  Then take two hands with your partner and both do a slight sit.  Then let go.  I you fall over you were pulling too hard!

              The continual yanking by people who are throwing their weight around can cause injury, including repetitive strain injury if it is a constant factor of their dancing.

              People use far too many muscles when they are dancing.  We had a new dancer today and I was showing him how to do a Roll Away.  He started pulling me hard with his connected hand and kept pulling strongly.  I explained that his initial pull – just moving his hand gently a few inches then relaxing – was enough.  Having initiated the Roll-Away the other dancer will complete it by themself.  He tried that and saw how easily we both completed the move without any effort.

              I hope that helps.

            Happy dancing,
                   John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England   john@modernjive.com<mailto:john@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

From: Joseph Erhard-Hudson <josephatthecoop@gmail.com><mailto:josephatthecoop@gmail.com>
Sent: 16 January 2024 19:12
To: John Sweeney <john@modernjive.com><mailto:john@modernjive.com>
Cc: Shared Weight Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net><mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Workshop activities for helping dancers improve their skills?

John,

Thanks for sharing your teaching notes with us.

I’m intrigued by one paragraph in particular:

Connect and relax. Be responsible for your own weight! Don't "Give weight"! Keep your arms firm but elastic.

Since “give weight” has been customary parlance for maintaining firm connection (at least that’s how I’ve always understood it) for so long, I’m hoping you can say more about what you’re asking them to do, or perhaps not to do. This is not to cast doubt on your notions, but to help me understand the diversity of the ways callers conceive and convey the hallmarks of good dancing technique.

Joseph


On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 10:25 AM John Sweeney via Contra Callers <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote:


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Joseph Erhard-Hudson via Contra Callers<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Tuesday, January 16, 2024 2:11 PM
John,

Thanks for sharing your teaching notes with us.

I’m intrigued by one paragraph in particular:

Connect and relax. Be responsible for your own weight! Don't "Give weight"! Keep your arms firm but elastic.

Since “give weight” has been customary parlance for maintaining firm connection (at least that’s how I’ve always understood it) for so long, I’m hoping you can say more about what you’re asking them to do, or perhaps not to do. This is not to cast doubt on your notions, but to help me understand the diversity of the ways callers conceive and convey the hallmarks of good dancing technique.

Joseph




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John Sweeney via Contra Callers<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Tuesday, January 16, 2024 1:25 PM
Hi Emily,
              Two of the most important skills to teach are Swings and Allemandes.  They are very frequent and often danced very badly.

              You can see some of my teaching notes at http://contrafusion.co.uk/Dances/AlliesMan.html with links to my Allemandes and Swings pages for more information.

            Happy dancing,
                   John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England   john@modernjive.com<mailto:john@modernjive.com> 01233 625 362 & 07802 940 574
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent


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Emily Addison via Contra Callers<mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>
Tuesday, January 16, 2024 11:49 AM
Hi fellow contra callers :)

I am wondering if any of you have little activities/exercises that you use to help dancers improve their knowledge/skills of contra dance?

I know there's lots of opinions on whether this is even necessary or should be offered.  However, I have a few situations where I've got dancers who are keen to improve their skills and I'd like to have various fun ways of doing so.

I'd love to hear your ideas!

One activity I remember from mannnnny years ago in Ottawa was led by Adina Gordon.  She had us form up in contra lines and then she would say 1-2 (maybe 3?) figures.  We weren't to dance the figure... instead, simply go to the spot where we would end up after the figure(s).  I remember this as being a lot of fun and a great learning experience.

I also remember from that same session something about sending some dancers out of the room and teaching the dance to others and then doing the dance. (I don't remember the details.)

Thoughts?

Any advice/ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Emily in Ottawa ON


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