Since no one else has mentioned this, I'll just say that my entire
personal difficulty with birds comes from fairy tales and ornithology.

When we say "robin" we are mostly thinking about that bird with the
"red breast", right? Not something kinda reddish-brownish? That's the
male. In my childhood I read any number of books with
anthropomorphised birds, and Mister Robin Redbreast was male. In a
bunch of the stories there was also small, sweet-singing female lark.

Add to that that in the states the robin is a different bird from in
the UK, and much larger, I've got two good reasons to think of the
robin as being the "male" role. My brain weighs the imagery and
memories against that silly little detail of starting with "R" or "L"
and defaults obstinately  to the exact wrong conclusion every time.
EVERY time. It's somewhat maddening. But "Ravens" was even worse,
because ravens are black and men in formal clothing dress in black, so
I guess things are better now??

Whew. Change is hard.

On 2/9/23, Peghesley via Contra Callers
<contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Bree, I’m making the same change as well and am calling without reference to
> role and don’t need bird terms. Louise Siddons’ position is a compelling
> one.
>
> Peg Hesley
> www.peghesley.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone using voice recognition
>
>> On Feb 8, 2023, at 7:04 PM, Bree Kalb via Contra Callers
>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> I made the same changes Chrissy did and for the same reason.  I think it
>> was 4-5 years ago when I switched from M and W to Gents and Ladies.  And
>> it seems to me that almost all the local callers did the same.
>>
>> ( Now I’m calling without reference to gender or role. Louise Siddons
>> booklet “Dance the Whole Dance” from CDSS describes well what many of us
>> are learning to do.)
>>
>> If it matters, my dance community is in a progressive/liberal area, so
>> calling styles here might be different than in other places.
>>
>> Bree Kalb
>> Carrboro, NC
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 8:18 PM Jacob or Nancy Bloom via Contra Callers
>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> At the Ralph Page Legacy day last month, Chrissy Fowler did a session in
>>> which she called dances as she called them at different times in her
>>> career.  In it, she talked about how, at one point, she and other female
>>> callers were insisting on the term "women" because they weren't ladies,
>>> and then several years later they were insisting on the term "ladies"
>>> because that was understood to be the name of a role.
>>>
>>> I can't give a year when it happened, but I do believe I remember a time
>>> when at least some callers were making it explicitly clear that the terms
>>> Gents and Ladies referred to roles, and anybody could dance either role.
>>>
>>> Jacob
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 2:29 PM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers
>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I believe it’s in Myrtle Wilhite’s Lullaby of the Swing and other contra
>>>> dances, tunes, waltzes, and essays (Madison, WI, 1993). I can’t lay my
>>>> hand on my copy at the moment, but perhaps someone else has one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tony Parkes
>>>>
>>>> Billerica, Mass.
>>>>
>>>> www.hands4.com
>>>>
>>>> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century
>>>>
>>>> (available now)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Mary Collins <nativedae@gmail.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2023 2:11 PM
>>>> To: Jeff Kaufman <jeff@alum.swarthmore.edu>
>>>> Cc: Tony Parkes <tony@hands4.com>; Joe Harrington
>>>> <contradancerjoe@gmail.com>; contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Gentlespoons/Ladles (from Rompin' Stompin')
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jeff, me too...if you find it, share please.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> mary
>>>>
>>>> "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who
>>>> couldn't hear the music." - Nietzsche
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about
>>>> learning to dance in the rain!” ~ unknown
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:58 AM Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers
>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Aside: does anyone have a copy of the "I am not a lady" essay?  I'd be
>>>>> interested to read it.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 9:54 AM Tony Parkes via Contra Callers
>>>>> <contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Joe Harrington wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > When I started dancing in the late 1980s… Callers were taking the
>>>>>> > revolutionary step of not calling "men" and "women" but rather using
>>>>>> > "ladies" and "gents", to signal that switching roles was ok, since
>>>>>> > nobody referred to themselves as a "lady" or a "gent" in casual
>>>>>> > conversation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where was this, Joe? And are you talking about contra callers (rather
>>>>>> than ECD)? I can only speak about the NYC area in the 1960s and early
>>>>>> ’70s, and New England starting in the late ’60s and continuing to the
>>>>>> present. In both regions, square/contra callers (contras were a
>>>>>> subcategory of square dance until around 1975) universally used
>>>>>> “gents/ladies.” (I believe ECD teachers have always used “men/women,”
>>>>>> presumably emulating Playford and Cecil Sharp.) AFAIK, northeastern
>>>>>> callers pretty consistently used “gents/ladies” until some of them
>>>>>> started to move away from gender-related terms. Tolman and Page’s
>>>>>> Country Dance Book (1937) uses “gents/ladies,” as do most of the other
>>>>>> standard American dance books from the 1900s to the 1950s (a few,
>>>>>> aimed at schoolteachers, use “boys/girls”).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know of no region where callers changed from “men/women” to
>>>>>> “gents/ladies.” I know that some callers, beginning I think in the
>>>>>> ’80s, changed from “gents/ladies” to “men/women,” feeling that
>>>>>> “gentlemen” and “ladies” smacked of classism. (One female caller, in
>>>>>> an essay titled “I am not a lady,” requested that other callers not
>>>>>> use her contra compositions if they adhered to “gents/ladies.”) As an
>>>>>> amateur (= lover) of dance history, I would like to know about past
>>>>>> changes of which I was unaware.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tony Parkes
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Billerica, Mass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> www.hands4.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New book! Square Dance Calling: An Old Art for a New Century
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (available now)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net
>
_______________________________________________
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-leave@lists.sharedweight.net