On Wednesday, February 19, 2025 at 10:00:15 PM MST, <contracallers-request@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. working with inexperienced bands (Joseph Erhard-Hudson)
2. Re: working with inexperienced bands (sjapartments@gmail.com)
3. Re: [External] working with inexperienced bands (Tepfer, Seth)
4. Re: Classes for callers? (Emily Addison)
5. Re: working with inexperienced bands (Gregory)
6. Re: working with inexperienced bands (Robert Matson)
7. Re: working with inexperienced bands (Mac Mckeever)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2025 23:45:40 -0800
Subject: [Callers] working with inexperienced bands
To: Shared Weight Contra Callers
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Hi all,
I live in a relatively isolated community in the contra dance world. To the
extent we have a house caller it's me. We are trying to foster and develop
new callers, but you gotta have bands too. So,
I'd welcome your thoughts on working with new bands.
My motive for asking is, a couple of times in the last year we have had new
bands come play for our monthly dance. One was a blue-grassey country band.
Another was a family group playing predominantly Irish tunes. Their musical
skills were fine and their repertoire was serviceable, and they did okay,
but there were definitely some rough spots.
New musical talent is a valuable commodity for us, and I want to set them
up for success. So, how would you approach this? I'd especially love to
hear from folks who have done this sort of thing before, but all thoughts
are welcome.
Joseph Erhard-Hudson
Moscow, Idaho, USA
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 04:05:21 -0600
Subject: [Callers] Re: working with inexperienced bands
Cc: Shared Weight Contra Callers
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Can you describe the rough spots?
Several suggestions:
1) Two to four weeks of so before the dance email them some resources about
playing for contra dance
Example resources (found with a Google search-- What makes a good
tune for a contra dance?)
2) Find 3-5 good for contra tunes, send them recordings of them an if
needed the sheet music.
Ask them to practice them for the dance
3) After reading the material Have them select 5-7 dances in their
repertoire they would like them to pla
and listen to a record or video of them, suggesting which ones
might not work well
4) Meet with them for a practice within a week a two (or maybe even an hour
or so)before the dance
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 1:46 AM Joseph Erhard-Hudson via Contra Callers <
> Hi all,
>
> I live in a relatively isolated community in the contra dance world. To
> the extent we have a house caller it's me. We are trying to foster and
> develop new callers, but you gotta have bands too. So,
> I'd welcome your thoughts on working with new bands.
>
> My motive for asking is, a couple of times in the last year we have had
> new bands come play for our monthly dance. One was a blue-grassey country
> band. Another was a family group playing predominantly Irish tunes. Their
> musical skills were fine and their repertoire was serviceable, and they did
> okay, but there were definitely some rough spots.
>
> New musical talent is a valuable commodity for us, and I want to set them
> up for success. So, how would you approach this? I'd especially love to
> hear from folks who have done this sort of thing before, but all thoughts
> are welcome.
>
> Joseph Erhard-Hudson
> Moscow, Idaho, USA
> _______________________________________________
>
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 13:46:41 +0000
Subject: [Callers] Re: [External] working with inexperienced bands
Cc: Shared Weight Contra Callers
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
boundary="_004_C8C57E2EBC494F4AA587AD9996CABF42emoryedu_"
Joseph
I recently did a community dance with a group of experienced musicians who had never played for a contra dance. Here is a document I sent them:
Good luck!
Sent from my iPhone
Hi all,
I live in a relatively isolated community in the contra dance world. To the extent we have a house caller it's me. We are trying to foster and develop new callers, but you gotta have bands too. So,
I'd welcome your thoughts on working with new bands.
My motive for asking is, a couple of times in the last year we have had new bands come play for our monthly dance. One was a blue-grassey country band. Another was a family group playing predominantly Irish tunes. Their musical skills were fine and their repertoire was serviceable, and they did okay, but there were definitely some rough spots.
New musical talent is a valuable commodity for us, and I want to set them up for success. So, how would you approach this? I'd especially love to hear from folks who have done this sort of thing before, but all thoughts are welcome.
Joseph Erhard-Hudson
Moscow, Idaho, USA
_______________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 09:05:10 -0500
Subject: [Callers] Re: Classes for callers?
Message-ID:
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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I might jump in to say I've actually learned a LOOOOOT about
teaching/calling dances period from PP. And I do apply these skills to
contra.
There are some true masters (Sue included!) as part of this group and PP is
an incredible opportunity to not only build repertoire and be inspired but
also to learn how to be a better dance leader, teacher, and prompter.
It's an incredible opportunity.
Emily
On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 2:20 PM Sue C. Hulsether via Contra Callers <
> I second EVERYTHING that Stacy said in her email. Pourparler is a unique
> and wonderful annual gathering of dance leaders who specialize in community
> dancing, family dancing, and dancing with school-aged people. It is
> dance-sharing and conversation between colleagues, both experienced and new
> leaders, as well as school teachers. What is most interesting to me (every
> year I go, and I am definitely a long-timer) is that there is a 50/50
> split between leaders who specialize in American (contra-square-barndance)
> and International folk dancing. But what we don’t share in repertoire, we
> share in “target audience,” as all the Pourparler attendees care deeply
> about teaching dance to new dancers.
>
> Like Stacy said, it is not an event to help you with contra calling chops
> or repertoire. But it is an event to feed your teacher-soul as you teach,
> learn, dance and watch colleagues teach and learn dance.
>
> If anyone on this list would like to connect more about the Pourparler, I
> am happy to correspond off list.
>
> sue
>
> Sue Hulsether
> New Day Hoedown LLC
> www.suehulsether.com
> 608-632-1267 Cell
> P.O. Box 363, Viroqua, WI 54665
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2025, at 10:03 AM, Stacy Rose via Contra Callers <
>
> As a contra caller AND a longtime Pourparler (PP) devotee, I don’t
> recommend attending PP if you’re interested in learning contra calling and
> getting feedback on your calling technique.
>
> PP is fabulous! I’ve learned lots and have met amazing dance teachers from
> across the continent. The focus is broad — contras, squares, Maypole
> dancing, international folk dancing (IFD), singing, play party games…
> participants are varied — elementary school music teachers, IFD teachers…
>
> Maybe instead, you might enjoy attending a summer CDSS camp
> contra calling week at John C. Campbell Folk School. Pourparler is a great
> program for learning how to engage a wide audience of people into a wide
> variety of participatory dance.
>
> Stacy Rose
> 541.808.1002
> www.stacyrosedance.com
>
> On Feb 17, 2025, at 9:24 PM, Robert Matson via Contra Callers <
>
>
>
> About Pour Parler:
>
> "In the past we have learned dances from many traditions including
> Balkan, Mexican, East Asian, Central Asian, Scandinavian, Israeli, French,
> English Country, square dancing, contra dancing, sword dancing, line
> dancing, Maypoles, old-time couple dancing, singing games, and many others.
> We discuss teaching techniques, repertoire, costuming, music, school
> curricula and self-employment."
>
> "Pourparler is a yearly gathering of dance and music educators from North
> America who are dedicated to teaching folk/ethnic/world/traditional dance
> in schools and/or community events. The brainchild of Sanna Longden,
> internationally respected dance educator from Evanston, Illinois, this
> weekend is a unique blend of dance and song sharing, discussion and
> networking. Experts in the field, teachers and musicians known across the
> continent, join with relative newcomers to share their best dances and tips
> for successful school residencies, family dances and other events that
> build community through cross-cultural dancing. Pourparler is a gathering
> of colleagues, where we are all leaders and participants, and there are no
> hired “experts.” "
>
>
> Rob
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Robert Matson
> Cell: (917) 626-2675
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:04 PM Harris Lapiroff via Contra Callers <
>
>> I recently saw a recommendation for Pourparler, happening in DC this year
>> (https://nfo-usa.com/pourparler/). I've never been (though I'm
>> considering it now), but I understand the focus there is broader than
>> contra and it seems to be more about dance sharing than a *course* per
>> se. But if your community is almost all beginners, I somewhat think you may
>> want to do a lot of barn dances and similar things rather than starting
>> with full evenings of duple minor contras, which can be challenging in a
>> largely beginner crowd, in my experience.
>>
>> Harris Lapiroff (he/him)
>>
>> Dance Caller and Organizer
>> Boston Intergenerational Dance Advocates Board (Cambridge MA)
>> Pinewoods Camp, Inc Board (Plymouth MA)
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2025, at 4:31 PM, Brian Roberts via Contra Callers wrote:
>>
>> Long time dancer, first time caller.
>>
>> Anyone know of any courses / workshops to improve my calling (in person
>> or online)? I'm willing to travel for the right course. (E.g. Meet Me in
>> St Louis had a calling workshop in 2024, but the schedule isn't out yet for
>> 2025.)
>>
>> My wife and I were long-time Boston-area contra dancers who are now
>> trying to bring the tradition to our adopted city in Austria. Almost all
>> the dancers are new, I'm a new caller, and I believe it would help me to
>> attend a class to learn more and get feedback on my technique.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>> ----
>> _______________________________________________
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 16:09:40 +0000
Subject: [Callers] Re: working with inexperienced bands
To: Shared Weight Contra Callers
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qTFbWE2SMrjufcpTgi2KWCISR3_-fFXSGVgyxH27CU2SXzQn30=@protonmail.com>
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Hi Joseph,
What is your musical experience/skill?
I have a music degree, have plied my trade in a few different areas of professional musicianship, and I've been working with live musicians (particularly young fiddlers who i see as the future and want to give performance opportunities to) for 10 years as a dance caller in an area with little-to-no contra dancing.
First off, I would get a sense of your musicians interest in the gig. Are they doing it for easy money? Are they genuinely interested to play for dancers and don't care how much they get paid? Are they making their living from gig work? Or is this something they do on the side for fun? Are they old-time experienced players? Or are they new upstarts, still forming their musical identity as a performer? Have they mastered their instruments or are they better-then-average amateurs? Answers to these questions can help set expectations for their commitment.
I can confidently say that the suggestion of sending musicians new tunes / resources a few weeks before the dance is not a welcome prospect and not setting them up for success. You should, instead, encourage new repertoire over a long period of time, and for the next show focus on what is in their current repertoire that will suffice for dances (if you want them to play for you again). It may seem an imposition, but if you can attend one of their rehearsals or jams, and ask to go through their repertoire, that would be best. Keep a few things in mind while doing so:
- No matter how experienced a fiddler is, playing for contra dances is a specific skill or knowledge base; don't be afraid to say that such-and-such doesn't work
- Some tunes sound fine but they're actually crooked and will not work for contra. You need to be able to detect these tunes to prevent them being programmed and ruining one of the dances. Crooked tunes in the contra dance realm take multiple forms: additional beats within a measure, yes, but also additional measures on a phrase. Phrases that are 4 or 12 beats long, and tunes that have more than 2 parts are particularly hard to detect. Your musicians may or may not know the difference or whether this is important or not (even if you're clear that 32 bars jigs and reels is what you're after, before hand).
- Different kinds of tunes work if the band is willing to play with the tempo. For example, jigs tend to be played faster than is comfortable for the dancers, so they need to be slowed down a touch, and polkas can also be played at a slower tempo. I suggest this to attempt to broaden the potential tunes that can be programmed while working within what they already know.
Also be respectful of different musicians abilities... Dave Brubeck couldn't read music, and some traditional musicians also never learned how to read music, picking up tunes by ear instead. If this is the case, sending tunes a few weeks before a show is simply not going to work. Musicians have their own culture apart from dancers, so temper your expectations and be patient and respectful.
Consider not hiring a "band" but hiring a fiddler. I don't know what the remote situation you're in is like, but if you have any professional musicians in your area, they should know how the gigs work. If you can find a single fiddler and hire them, they will find someone else to play with them as a duo or trio, as long as you explain what you're looking for (reels at 120 bpm, playing for dancers, etc.) and the pay. If you can pair less experienced musicians with more experienced musicians, this will benefit you in the long run, bringing up a new generation of fiddlers in this tradition. For example, many musicians have students. Ask if one of their students is up for the task of performing and they can join in on a few tunes. It also broadens your dance base when the parents come out and participate.
You'll want to go over with whomever you hire a series of signals that indicate "speed up", "slow down", "keep playing", "stop immediately" and "stop at the end of the phrase / last time".
You'll want to ensure that they start each tune with a 4 beat introduction ("Four for nothing" as Winton Marsalis says, and "Four potatoes" as is the phrase around here), which is a cue for you to cue the dancers. Musicians are NOT in the habit of doing this on their own, and waiting once through the tune instead is too long.
Forcing a square peg into a round hole is not what i would consider setting anyone up for success. Expecting your blue grass band to convert to a contra dance band lickity-split is, in my opinion, not a good approach. I would suggest letting it be what it's going to be. Maybe your group likes blue grass tunes, and you form a contra/bluegrass syncretism. This is part of the folk process. Everywhere, everyone, is different and cherishing that and encouraging appreciation is what i would consider setting people up for success - my previous recommendations and advice support this idea, I think. For example, in my area, fiddling is heavily influenced by many repertoires, particularly Metis, which was originally used for Metis step dancing. I doubt the Metis fiddle tunes get played anywhere else, but they make for excellent contra dance tunes with their own flare and feel. I'm leaning into this, it's part of the Manitoba sound!
Best of luck! Happy Dancing!
Greg, Winnipeg
Greg
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Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/mail/home) secure email.
> Hi all,
>
> I live in a relatively isolated community in the contra dance world. To the extent we have a house caller it's me. We are trying to foster and develop new callers, but you gotta have bands too. So,
> I'd welcome your thoughts on working with new bands.
>
> My motive for asking is, a couple of times in the last year we have had new bands come play for our monthly dance. One was a blue-grassey country band. Another was a family group playing predominantly Irish tunes. Their musical skills were fine and their repertoire was serviceable, and they did okay, but there were definitely some rough spots.
>
> New musical talent is a valuable commodity for us, and I want to set them up for success. So, how would you approach this? I'd especially love to hear from folks who have done this sort of thing before, but all thoughts are welcome.
>
> Joseph Erhard-Hudson
> Moscow, Idaho, USA-------------- next part --------------
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 10:22:43 -0600
Subject: [Callers] Re: working with inexperienced bands
To: Shared Weight Contra Callers
Message-ID:
<CABac1s7Y18_gfVVFKm1Twk_X+0MTdGvv_32aH9uZU1UnC+wXnA@mail.gmail.com>
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Hi,
There was also a discussion on this point on or around Sept. 4, 2024,
started by Seth T. entitled: "[Callers] Resources to turn musicians into
dance musicians?" Unfortunately, I can't find it in the archives to send
you the link.
Wearing my hat as a dance musician and band leader, and being in a
situation similar to yours, in a college town far from an area with large
numbers of skilled dance musicians, these are the suggestions I posted. I
hope they help.
=====
Hi All,
I think everything they [skilled musicians who are new to playing dance
music] need to know is in "September" by Earth, Wind & Fire
Also, maybe listen to the interview of Verdine White, the EWF bassist, with
producer Rick Rubin
It may help convey how long and diligently dance musicians work at their
craft and, therefore, help them appreciate the music form.
All musicians I recruit and audition, I ask that they study and understand
everything going on in "September."
If they have a year, I recommend the Dance Musicians class at the John C
Campbell Folk School, created by David Kaynor, and, in the year I took it,
was taught by Betsy Branch, Susan Songer, Peter Siegel and Andy Davis.
They might also study recordings of the New England Dancing Masters on
YouTube.
In my approach, the key element of dance music is a sense of inner pulse,
and then, performance with a strong pulse or "groove." However, like pitch
and intonation, pulse and groove are subtle abilities that only a small
percentage of musicians have or can develop. Unfortunately, I have found
that few musicians have a ready sense of pulse, though I believe it can be
developed.
For our dance, I play solo, with live overdubbing and, usually, a drum
machine, because, for the time being, I gave up on trying to develop dance
musicians. (Background: ours is an all-new, all-beginner dance community.
This clip is from our first dance of this school year which was a small
group, but we doubled our number at last night's dance.)
I hope this helps your musicians.
Rob Matson
=====
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Robert Matson
Innovation Media Corp.
The Innovation Works, Inc.
Cell: (917) 626-2675
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 16:24:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Callers] Re: working with inexperienced bands
To: Shared Weight Contra Callers
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
We have a lot of local old time bands here - but several years ago someone asked about getting an Irish band. I went to a local bar where they have a weekly Irish jam and talked to them. The jam is organized by a guitar player who is a very accomplished musician. We talked about what was needed and booked them. He showed up with 2 fiddlers and a banjo player. They were adequate but developed quickly into a very nice dance band
Four potatoes were a problem - first we tried to just play the A part 3 times at the beginning - then then just started tapping loudly on the guitar 4 times - and that worked fine
Took a while to refine the tempo - but that worked out too. Crooked tunes were not a problem - but that may have been due to the knowledge of the guitar player.
I called with them that night. The best part was after about 3 dances - one of them said "Wow - this is what we should be doing more of". Money has never been an issue with them or any of our bands. One of our series is very small - about 20+ dancers. We get a 5 piece band to play for 2 hours and pay the band $60 and they just really like doing it.
Not sure if this is helpful - but we did get non dance musicians to successfully play for dances (we use them a couple times a year) with very few issues. Dancers are very forgiving if they understand the situation.
Good luck
Mac McKeever
St Louis
Hi Joseph,
What is your musical experience/skill?
I have a music degree, have plied my trade in a few different areas of professional musicianship, and I've been working with live musicians (particularly young fiddlers who i see as the future and want to give performance opportunities to) for 10 years as a dance caller in an area with little-to-no contra dancing.
First off, I would get a sense of your musicians interest in the gig. Are they doing it for easy money? Are they genuinely interested to play for dancers and don't care how much they get paid? Are they making their living from gig work? Or is this something they do on the side for fun? Are they old-time experienced players? Or are they new upstarts, still forming their musical identity as a performer? Have they mastered their instruments or are they better-then-average amateurs? Answers to these questions can help set expectations for their commitment.
I can confidently say that the suggestion of sending musicians new tunes / resources a few weeks before the dance is not a welcome prospect and not setting them up for success. You should, instead, encourage new repertoire over a long period of time, and for the next show focus on what is in their current repertoire that will suffice for dances (if you want them to play for you again). It may seem an imposition, but if you can attend one of their rehearsals or jams, and ask to go through their repertoire, that would be best. Keep a few things in mind while doing so:
1. No matter how experienced a fiddler is, playing for contra dances is a specific skill or knowledge base; don't be afraid to say that such-and-such doesn't work
2. Some tunes sound fine but they're actually crooked and will not work for contra. You need to be able to detect these tunes to prevent them being programmed and ruining one of the dances. Crooked tunes in the contra dance realm take multiple forms: additional beats within a measure, yes, but also additional measures on a phrase. Phrases that are 4 or 12 beats long, and tunes that have more than 2 parts are particularly hard to detect. Your musicians may or may not know the difference or whether this is important or not (even if you're clear that 32 bars jigs and reels is what you're after, before hand).
3. Different kinds of tunes work if the band is willing to play with the tempo. For example, jigs tend to be played faster than is comfortable for the dancers, so they need to be slowed down a touch, and polkas can also be played at a slower tempo. I suggest this to attempt to broaden the potential tunes that can be programmed while working within what they already know.
Also be respectful of different musicians abilities... Dave Brubeck couldn't read music, and some traditional musicians also never learned how to read music, picking up tunes by ear instead. If this is the case, sending tunes a few weeks before a show is simply not going to work. Musicians have their own culture apart from dancers, so temper your expectations and be patient and respectful.
Consider not hiring a "band" but hiring a fiddler. I don't know what the remote situation you're in is like, but if you have any professional musicians in your area, they should know how the gigs work. If you can find a single fiddler and hire them, they will find someone else to play with them as a duo or trio, as long as you explain what you're looking for (reels at 120 bpm, playing for dancers, etc.) and the pay. If you can pair less experienced musicians with more experienced musicians, this will benefit you in the long run, bringing up a new generation of fiddlers in this tradition. For example, many musicians have students. Ask if one of their students is up for the task of performing and they can join in on a few tunes. It also broadens your dance base when the parents come out and participate.
You'll want to go over with whomever you hire a series of signals that indicate "speed up", "slow down", "keep playing", "stop immediately" and "stop at the end of the phrase / last time".
You'll want to ensure that they start each tune with a 4 beat introduction ("Four for nothing" as Winton Marsalis says, and "Four potatoes" as is the phrase around here), which is a cue for you to cue the dancers. Musicians are NOT in the habit of doing this on their own, and waiting once through the tune instead is too long.
Forcing a square peg into a round hole is not what i would consider setting anyone up for success. Expecting your blue grass band to convert to a contra dance band lickity-split is, in my opinion, not a good approach. I would suggest letting it be what it's going to be. Maybe your group likes blue grass tunes, and you form a contra/bluegrass syncretism. This is part of the folk process. Everywhere, everyone, is different and cherishing that and encouraging appreciation is what i would consider setting people up for success - my previous recommendations and advice support this idea, I think. For example, in my area, fiddling is heavily influenced by many repertoires, particularly Metis, which was originally used for Metis step dancing. I doubt the Metis fiddle tunes get played anywhere else, but they make for excellent contra dance tunes with their own flare and feel. I'm leaning into this, it's part of the Manitoba sound!
Best of luck! Happy Dancing!
Greg, Winnipeg
Greg
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>
> Hi all,
>
> I live in a relatively isolated community in the contra dance world. To the extent we have a house caller it's me. We are trying to foster and develop new callers, but you gotta have bands too. So,
> I'd welcome your thoughts on working with new bands.
>
> My motive for asking is, a couple of times in the last year we have had new bands come play for our monthly dance. One was a blue-grassey country band. Another was a family group playing predominantly Irish tunes. Their musical skills were fine and their repertoire was serviceable, and they did okay, but there were definitely some rough spots.
>
> New musical talent is a valuable commodity for us, and I want to set them up for success. So, how would you approach this? I'd especially love to hear from folks who have done this sort of thing before, but all thoughts are welcome.
>
> Joseph Erhard-Hudson
> Moscow, Idaho, USA
>
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Subject: Digest Footer
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End of Contra Callers Digest, Vol 127, Issue 12
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