[Organizers] Liability insurance

Richard Mathews via Organizers organizers at lists.sharedweight.net
Mon Aug 14 14:04:55 PDT 2017 

Our dance in Gainesville, FL had CDSS insurance - but I'm honestly not sure
how much it helps if it were to come to someone trying to make a claim to
cover an injury. Best I can tell, the CDSS insurance only kicks in *after*
the organization or individuals have been sued & found liable (or otherwise
found liable). From what I can tell about that process, the attorney's fees
alone would be enough to put a massive hurt on any dance organization (and
most individuals, if they were sued in their capacity as 'dance
organizers'). The specific language from the CDSS website is, "This is a
general commercial liability policy. It is not accident insurance.
Liability insurance is for when you are sued, and negligence of some sort
on the part of the group has to be proven."

After thinking about that a bit, I did some research on other dance
organizations and their offers of insurance coverage - and it turns out
that some of them (specifically some square dance organizations) actually
*do* offer actual accident insurance. Like, if an accident happens and
someone gets injured, then they can get the cost of their injuries covered
(up to a certain amount, and secondary to regular health insurance). If I
recall correctly, one of the organizations had the insurance set up such
that they'd need specific member rolls for the individual square dance
clubs, to keep track of whose dues had been paid and therefore who was
covered under the accident insurance. That wouldn't work too well for
Contra obviously, since we tend to get lots of random new people - and we'd
want them to be covered without having to make them sign up for membership.
Anyway, I researched more, and it turns out that there's at least one
insurance company (Francis L. Dean, fdean.com ) that offers no-fault
accident insurance for dances, as well as combined participant liability.
And you can get the accident insurance without the liability insurance -
and it's reasonably cheap. I think it'd be great for CDSS to adopt this
type of insurance product for the member organizations - because honestly,
it seems a lot better than the current insurance that CDSS offers. But
maybe there are other elements to the insurance situation that I'm not
aware of.

Richard Mathews

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 2:23 PM, via Organizers <
organizers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Liability insurance (Mac Mckeever via Organizers)
>    2. Re: Liability insurance (Dave Casserly via Organizers)
>    3. Re: Liability insurance (Donald Perley via Organizers)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:27:28 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Mac Mckeever via Organizers <organizers at lists.sharedweight.net>
> To: Mary Anne Eason <maeason at gmail.com>,
>         "organizers at lists.sharedweight.net"
>         <organizers at lists.sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Organizers] Liability insurance
> Message-ID: <669200276.1428319.1502731648988 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> We had a problem where a dancer fell and broke her arm.? Her health
> insurance covered her treatment.? They called her and demanded to know who
> we were and who owned the venue.? She said OK - but if anyone asks I will
> tell them I was a klutz and fell - it was my own fault.? AT that point the
> insurance co dropped it.
> I was told is it common for insurance companies to try to recover their
> costs via law suits.
> If you have any assets at all they need to be protected.? In our state,
> officers of not-for-profit cannot be sued for liability issues - and we are
> all volunteers.? Make sure your organizers are not vulnerable
> Mac McKeever
>
>
>       From: Mary Anne Eason via Organizers <organizers at lists.
> sharedweight.net>
>  To: organizers at lists.sharedweight.net
>  Sent: Monday, August 14, 2017 12:14 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Organizers] Liability insurance
>
> Our smallish dance has had liability insurance for the past several
> years because the venue required it. We also had to have their name
> added to the contract which cost another $30 on top of the other fees
> you have already mentioned. I have been at a couple dances where
> accidents have happened, and someone could have sued, but fortunately
> didn't. I've felt better knowing we have the insurance, but we really
> can't afford it and our bands and callers have suffered because we had
> less money to pay them. (We try to hold back a little each month to help
> cover those costs as well as the cost of the hall.) I don't know what
> the solution is - sorry!
>
> Mary Anne
>
> On 8/14/2017 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers wrote:
> > I am wondering whether most dance series have liability insurance -
> particularly? small ones.
> >
> > Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, ? depending on
> the number of dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other
> sources would be more expensive. For a small dance with few financial
> reserves, the extra fees each year could easily drive it to extinction.
> >
> > I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not
> all do.
> >
> > What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few
> years?
> >
> > I?d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who
> got injured or thought they were treated badly, venues where there was
> damage to the site.
> >
> > What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
> >
> > Anything else?
> >
> > ??? John
> > _______________________________________________
> > Organizers mailing list
> > Organizers at lists.sharedweight.net
> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net
> >
> _______________________________________________
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> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 14:19:58 -0400
> From: Dave Casserly via Organizers <organizers at lists.sharedweight.net>
> To: "organizers at lists.sharedweight.net"
>         <organizers at lists.sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Organizers] Liability insurance
> Message-ID:
>         <CAJkiw7zFeEwxgfGXQAgYhEsXOkYYyaj8EKJDi2vczj=bKLe=Uw at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I've asked this question a few times, and I have literally never heard a
> single anecdote of a contra dancer suing a dance organization.
>
> When I ran a dance series, we were almost entirely judgment-proof; we
> probably did not even have enough assets to cover the deductible on our
> insurance policy.  The only reason we had insurance was because at least
> one venue required it.  If you are lucky enough to find a venue that does
> not require a liability insurance policy, then don't carry one.  The risks
> are minimal-- maybe a 1 in 10,000 chance (I'd guess less) of being sued and
> losing, what, a couple thousand bucks of sound equipment?  Versus paying
> $500 or more every year for perpetuity, then having to lose half your
> assets to cover a deductible / spend loads of time and effort fighting an
> insurance company to get it to cover costs or defend you if you're sued
> anyway.
>
> Plus, that HMO lawyer who was looking to recoup what it spent on some
> lady's medical bills is going to look elsewhere if you don't have insurance
> and also don't have significant assets.  Not worth spending $10,000 on a
> lawsuit to possibly recover a few pieces of sound equipment worth $800 used
> and a bank account balance of $230.
>
> This goes for dances that are incorporated as nonprofits and are a typical
> contra dance organization-- small assets, running only a weekly or monthly
> dance.  Large organizations like FSGW or NEFFA or BACDS will obviously have
> larger assets and that's a different question entirely.
>
> Those of you talking about ASCAP or whomever looking for fees, that's
> separate.  Getting liability insurance wouldn't cover a copyright
> infringement action from ASCAP anyway.
>
> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Mac Mckeever via Organizers <
> organizers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> > We had a problem where a dancer fell and broke her arm.  Her health
> > insurance covered her treatment.  They called her and demanded to know
> who
> > we were and who owned the venue.  She said OK - but if anyone asks I will
> > tell them I was a klutz and fell - it was my own fault.  AT that point
> the
> > insurance co dropped it.
> >
> > I was told is it common for insurance companies to try to recover their
> > costs via law suits.
> >
> > If you have any assets at all they need to be protected.  In our state,
> > officers of not-for-profit cannot be sued for liability issues - and we
> are
> > all volunteers.  Make sure your organizers are not vulnerable
> >
> > Mac McKeever
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* Mary Anne Eason via Organizers <organizers at lists.
> sharedweight.net>
> > *To:* organizers at lists.sharedweight.net
> > *Sent:* Monday, August 14, 2017 12:14 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [Organizers] Liability insurance
> >
> > Our smallish dance has had liability insurance for the past several
> > years because the venue required it. We also had to have their name
> > added to the contract which cost another $30 on top of the other fees
> > you have already mentioned. I have been at a couple dances where
> > accidents have happened, and someone could have sued, but fortunately
> > didn't. I've felt better knowing we have the insurance, but we really
> > can't afford it and our bands and callers have suffered because we had
> > less money to pay them. (We try to hold back a little each month to help
> > cover those costs as well as the cost of the hall.) I don't know what
> > the solution is - sorry!
> >
> > Mary Anne
> >
> > On 8/14/2017 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers wrote:
> > > I am wondering whether most dance series have liability insurance -
> > particularly  small ones.
> > >
> > > Insurance for a dance series from CDSS costs $450, $550, ? depending on
> > the number of dances plus $85 membership fee every year. I suspect other
> > sources would be more expensive. For a small dance with few financial
> > reserves, the extra fees each year could easily drive it to extinction.
> > >
> > > I know that sone venues require that the group has insurance, but not
> > all do.
> > >
> > > What is the risk of not having it? Any recent incidents in the past few
> > years?
> > >
> > > I?d think possible suits could be from dancers or musicians/callers who
> > got injured or thought they were treated badly, venues where there was
> > damage to the site.
> > >
> > > What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
> > >
> > > Anything else?
> > >
> > >     John
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Organizers mailing list
> > > Organizers at lists.sharedweight.net
> > > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net
> >
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Organizers mailing list
> > Organizers at lists.sharedweight.net
> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Organizers mailing list
> > Organizers at lists.sharedweight.net
> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/organizers-sharedweight.net
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> David Casserly
> (cell) 781 258-2761
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> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 14:22:38 -0400
> From: Donald Perley via Organizers <organizers at lists.sharedweight.net>
> To: John W Gintell <john at gintell.org>
> Cc: A list for dance organizers <organizers at sharedweight.net>
> Subject: Re: [Organizers] Liability insurance
> Message-ID:
>         <CAMKNU+_shATu9P4HRwuWUkvjQwZTf9XbL8LJH
> eUgEk7qiw5+tg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> Lots of posts covered the liability.
> wrt copy infringement, live music won't have issue with performance
> copyright, but not all music
> played for dances will be public domain "traditional".   My
> non-lawyerly guess is that more an issue for the band,
> since they are the ones choosing their material.
>
> On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 12:38 PM, John W Gintell via Organizers
> <organizers at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > What about ASCAP copy infringement suits? Have there been any of these?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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