[Musicians] Danceability of versions of the same tune (Sleepy-Eyed Joe)
Meg Dedolph
meg.dedolph at gmail.com
Tue Sep 24 16:23:46 PDT 2019
Hi Jim,
I listened to the clips you posted links to, and I think the rhythm in the
accompaniment has a lot to do with what makes the tune "danceable." With
the exception of the solo guitar version, both other versions had that
boom-chuck old-time groove going, with a reliable and easy-to-hear "chuck,"
on the offbeat.
The fiddlers also leaned a little harder on the offbeat, which I think
often makes tunes swing in a way that's better for dancing, regardless of
whether they're old-time tunes or not.
Anyway ... a great tune regardless of how it's played.
Meg in Chicago
On Tue, Sep 24, 2019 at 5:00 PM jim saxe via Musicians <
musicians at lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> A few years ago (Dec 28 2015), I posted a message here with Subject line
> "Danceability of versions of the same tune" in which I called attention to
> these two recordings of "Sleepy Eyed Joe"
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2RI8FlwvQg
> Foghorn Stringband
> ~134 BPM
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ajfs8tcyrI
> Lyman Enloe (and ???)
> (Is this really a version of the "same" tune?)
> ~131 BPM
>
> and contrasted them with this one
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AntWbzdq60
> Norman Blake
> ~114 or 115 BPM
>
> I think that both the Foghorn version and the Lyman Enloe version are fine
> examples of music for old-time squares and that they could also be good for
> contras is played in similar style but at a lower tempo. But I said this
> about the Blake version:
>
> > Again, the player is undeniably skilled. But somehow this
> > rendition just doesn't do it for me as dance music. And I
> > don't think the difference is just the slower tempo (about
> > 115 B.P.M.) compared to the other two versions.
>
> At least one other list member explicitly agreed that the Blake version
> was meant for listening, not dancing, and I don't think anyone offered a
> contrary opinion.
>
> Recently, while going through some of my CDs, I realized that I had
> another recording of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" played by Norman Blake, which I then
> found is also on YouTube, here:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rek6WqLfUVI
> Norman Blake, Nancy Blake, James Bryan, Charlie Collins
> ~114 BPM
>
> The tune is played five times through, with Norman Blake playing melody on
> mandolin on rounds 1, 3, and 5 and fiddler James Bryan taking the melodic
> lead on rounds 2 and 4 and
>
> While this one is at a similarly moderate tempo to the other Blake version
> cited above, it immediately struck me as being in a more danceable style.
> And that applies to the parts with mandolin lead as well as those with
> fiddle lead, even though I generally prefer fiddle over plucked or strummed
> instruments as the melodic lead for old-time square dance music.
>
> I invite other list members to play the recordings for yourselves and tell
> me what you think. You might also want to try playing each with the
> YouTube playback speed set to 1.25 (click the gear-shaped icon in the strip
> along the bottom of the YouTube window),bringing the tempo into the low
> 140s (which, to my taste, is about the top of the suitable tempo range for
> traditional southern/western square dances, notwithstanding Cecil Sharp's
> recommendation of tempos around 160 for the "running set").
>
> Since I happen to have a variable-speed cd player as well as CD including
> the last-cited recording, I've also been able to listen to it at an
> intermediate tempo of about 130 BPM. At that tempo, it seemed quite
> danceable, both in the parts with mandolin lead and those with fiddle lead.
>
> So what's behind the difference in danceability I'm hearing between
> Blake's two renditions of the tune? I don't think it's the tempos, which
> are nearly the same, with the second being, perhaps a shade slower the
> first. And I don't think it has to do with Blake playing mandolin on the
> second vs. (I think) guitar on the first. Do the backing musicians on the
> second recording could have something to with it? Is it mostly, as I'm
> inclined to think, that on the second recording Blake plays in a
> less-ornamented, more "straight-ahead" style? (And if so, can someone with
> more musical knowledge than I have describe what's going on in other terms
> that might be informative to an aspiring dance musician?) Or do you think
> the difference in danceability is entirely in my head, perhaps based on
> what kind of mood I was in when I first heard each of the two recordings?
>
> Comments, anyone?
>
> --Jim
>
> P.S.,
>
> The notes accompanying the CD with the second Blake recording cited above
> attribute the tune "Sleepy Eyed Joe" to Ellis Hall. A search in the
> Traditional Tune Archive
>
> https://tunearch.org/wiki/TTA
>
> gives surprisingly little information about the tune--just a mention of it
> as being on the flip side of a 1952 recording of "My Little Home in West
> Virginia" by Ellis Hall and Bill Addis.
>
> I've also discovered that there are several renditions of "Sleepy Eyed
> Joe" in the Gordon McCann Ozarks Folk Music Collection hosted by Missouri
> State University
>
>
> https://digitalcollections.missouristate.edu/digital/collection/McCann/
>
> but I haven't listened to them yet. The McCann collection looks like a
> terrific resource, with 938 YouTube videos (or perhaps "YouTube audios'
> would be a more accurate description) digitized from tapes of jam sessions,
> fiddle contests, dances, interviews, etc. Lengths of the videos vary from
> under 10 minutes (for ones made from on partially-used side of a tape) to
> over three hours (for ones digitized from multiple tapes), but I'd guess
> they averaging an hour of longer. While someone has put a lot of work into
> writing descriptions that list the contents of these recordings (or at
> least of many of them), and while there's a search facility to find
> recordings based on those descriptions, the content listings don't include
> start times for the various segments. So even when you've found a
> recording, it can still take a while to work your way through it to the
> particular selection you want to hear.
>
> --Jim
>
> On Dec 28, 2015, at 12:28 PM, James Saxe <jim.saxe at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Folks,
> >
> > A while ago, I was listening to a bunch of old-time music and
> > trying to wrap my head around what makes some tunes--or some
> > renditions of some tunes--seem (to me) more suitable for square
> > and/or contra dancing than others. Of course I know about
> > crooked tunes not working for phrased dances. I'm trying to
> > get at more subtle issues. I've just been listening to three
> > renditions of the "same" tune, and I wonder whether any of
> > you will share my reactions and, perhaps, be better able to
> > articulate the reasons for then than I am.
> >
> > One of the tunes I came across in my old-time listening binge
> > was "Sleepy Eyed Joe" as played by the Foghorn Stringband on
> > their album _Weiser Sunrise_. It immediately impressed me as
> > a great square-dance tune. I also think it would be fime for
> > contras if played in similar style but at a somewhat slower
> > tempo. (Tempo on the recording is about 134 B.P.M.)
> >
> > As of the time I write this, the _Weiser Sunrise_ album, which
> > had gone out of print for a while, seems to be available again.
> > You can hear a sample of "Sleepy Eyed Joe"--once through the
> > tune--here
> >
> >
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00JAPC1H6?ie=UTF8&ref_=dm_ws_tlw_trk6
> >
> > and the whole track here
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2RI8FlwvQg
> >
> > So you can listen for yourself and see if you agree with me.
> >
> > I also found a rendition of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" as played by
> > its composer, late Missouri fiddler Lyman Enloe (1906-1997);
> [Note: I was apparently in error when I referred to Enloe as
> the composer. See the other quoted message below.]
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ajfs8tcyrI
> >
> > [tempo about 131 B.P.M.] Lyman plays his composition with
> > undeniable skill and, I think, in a quite danceable style.
> > His name wasn't familiar to me before, but now that I've
> > heard him, I'll be looking to buy some of his music. That
> > said, there's still something about the Foghorn's version
> > of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" that makes it seem (to me) even more
> > danceable.
> >
> > And here's a third rendition of the tune, played by Norman
> > Blake on solo guitar:
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AntWbzdq60
> >
> > Again, the player is undeniably skilled. But somehow this
> > rendition just doesn't do it for me as dance music. And I
> > don't think the difference is just the slower tempo (about
> > 115 B.P.M.) compared to the other two versions. (When I
> > play the Blake version with the YouTube speed control set
> > to 1.25--thus raising the tempo into the low 140's--it
> > sounds more driving, but it still seems to me that there's
> > something lacking. Alas, I don't have means to play it at
> > an intermediate tempo.)
> >
> > Thoughts, anyone?
> >
> > --Jim
>
>
> On Dec 28, 2015, at 2:39 PM, James Saxe <jim.saxe at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Folks,
> >
> > In my previous message, I wrote:
> >
> >> I also found a rendition of "Sleepy Eyed Joe" as played by
> >> its composer, late Missouri fiddler Lyman Enloe ...
> >
> > After looking around some more, I find that "Sleepy Eyed Joe"
> > appears to be traditional. It appears that I misread some
> > reference to the tune *as played by* Lyman Enloe as attributing
> > authorship. However this Google Books snippet of _Ozarks Fiddle
> > Music_
> >
> >
> https://books.google.com/books?id=2vm8OaHq_WcC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=%22sleepy+eyed+joe%22+enloe&source=bl&ots=vCRm4poWy-&sig=VfhzvlIp2s9LDMQWdz23EKU1G5A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6pYT3y__JAhUM9WMKHfoQCHIQ6AEIQDAH#v=onepage&q=%22sleepy%20eyed%20joe%22%20enloe&f=false
> >
> > gives notation for Enloe's version (which I still like almost as
> > much as I like Foghorn's version) with the comment:
> >
> > Enloe does not remember where he learned this tune. He says
> > he is aware that several different tunes have this title. ...
> <snip>
>
>
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