<div dir="ltr">Interesting observation, Alan.<div><br></div><div>Yes, I've encountered it with female dancers as a dancer and caller. However...it isn't quite the same. I suspect it is both more apparent and more pronounced with men, AND that once they've braved the waters to come dancing the experience of it may be less likely to cause them to stop dancing than it is with women. </div><div><br></div><div>Here's my reasoning:<br><div><br></div><div>Even though squares and contra are not even close to being true lead/follow dances, the men's role is still imbued with more directional control and responsibility in things like properly positioning swings and managing courtesy turns. A man who persistently fails at those will be more disruptive and obvious than an equally incompetent female counterpart due to simple physics and the nature of contra choreography. There is nothing to tell him that HE is the problem, and if he has never seen or experienced a truly successful set he doesn't know any better.</div><div><br></div><div>There is also a more significant social component. Men tend to be rewarded for acting confident and penalized for seeking outside validation, so much so that we do it even when we don't know what we're doing. Women experience the reverse situation and are likely to be criticized (or feel they will be criticized) for being confident even when they obviously DO know what they are doing. That means a struggling male dancer is more likely to go confidently wrong than a woman, while a skilled male dancer is more willing to confidently "assist" a difficult partner than his equally skilled female counterparts. Conversely, a struggling female dancer is more likely to accept assistance and willingly perceive the problem than a man is.</div><div><br></div><div>There is research which has been done on false confidence, where people who possess highly above-average skill will tend to underestimate their own knowledge and overestimate that of others, while those who persistently fail to learn will tend to do the reverse. This sort of persistent-beginner dancer may actually believe that he is learning at a perfectly fine rate.</div><div><br></div><div>Another piece of research that I think is relevant has to do with the different reactions men and women have to the same act of failure. An assessment was done of failed funding attempts on Kickstarter. What the researchers discovered first was that a repeated effort was more likely to succeed. Then they broke down the behavior by gender. When male entrepreneurs failed to receive backing, they were highly likely to repost the same project until it succeeded. A female entrepreneur, on the other hand, would scrap it and try something completely different--if she tried anything at all. The researchers interpreted this difference as being caused by relative internalization of community commentary. (I haven't read the original papers, and learned of both topics through NPR. I can dig up the citations if anyone is interested in learning more.) </div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, if that conclusion is correct, male versions of these problem dancers may stick around despite repeatedly failing, while the female of the species realizes something is wrong and jumps ship. This is probably especially true if the men are receiving any sort of encouragement or positive feedback at all.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Just some thoughts.</div><div>Neal</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Neal Schlein</div><div>Youth Services Librarian, Mahomet Public Library</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Currently reading: <i>The Different Girl</i> by Gordon Dahlquist<br></div><div>Currently learning: How to set up an automated email system.</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:41 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net" target="_blank">callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
I've seen some responses on the organizers list and here, and I've
thought about the persistent rock-in-the-stream dancer we had in
Berkeley (who did, eventually, start modifying the dances so he
could get where he needed on time, and who indeed various women
would ask to dance or he'd be asking the new young women dancers and
confusing them horribly).<br>
<br>
One thing I'm noticing from the similar stories and responses is
that all the rocks in the stream I'm hearing about are male, and
it's falling on experienced women dancers to save the dance from
them.<br>
<br>
Is this just a problem with small sample sizes? Has anyone
encountered this kind of dancer, the kind who really structurally
can't ever be good at it, spreads confusion, and yet keeps coming
back, in female form? <br>
<br>
-- Alan<div><div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="m_69384111567589893moz-cite-prefix">On 3/6/2017 5:24 PM, Mary Collins via
Callers wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">We have a dancer here in
Buffalo that has a hard time hearing and ear-mind
process-motor response time is very very slow. (I worry about
him driving). We have a loose house rule that the regular
good lady dancers pair with this gentleman. Otherwise he will
ask newbies to dance, and often is at the end of the line,
after the walk through. When you dance with him you have to
call to him through the dance and guide him to where he needs
to be. This is how we have dealt with our own issue.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">In your case, you might want to
invite him to your beginner's workshop where you can address
some of the issues you have seen him experience (i.e. the 1/2
alemande instead of the 1 1/2 of the call, or a shorter
swing. Play up the better never than late thing and talk
about flourishes and how they are not really a necessary part
of the dance experience.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">the others have mentioned other
ideas that are really good.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Good luck Marie!<br>
<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:trebuchet ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Mary in Buffalo<br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="m_69384111567589893gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">“Life is not about waiting for the storms to
pass ... it's about learning to dance in the rain!” ~
Unknown</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:13 PM,
Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net" target="_blank">callers@lists.sharedweight.<wbr>net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Hi everyone,<br>
</div>
Lately a new dancer has started coming to our
dance and he is bad enough that he will often
make the set break if the dance is moderately
challenging. He seems to have some kind of
impairment and walks very stiffly which means he
will often not be on time for a figure and also
often does not remember what is coming next.<br>
</div>
We want to be inclusive but at the same time his
presence negatively impacts other dancers in his
set and while some of the experienced dancers will
take one for the team and dance with him, it is an
unpleasant experience to be his partner.
Unfortunately, we always have many new dancers and
having one couple not be where they should be can
really throw them off in some dances so I feel
like I have to push and pull him around to be on
time, despite the fact that it's a little rude.<br>
</div>
A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed
bump" which was quite accurate. I'm sure other
dances have had experience with similar troubles,
does anyone have advice on how to deal with this so
that other dancers still have a good time yet we are
nice to this problematic dancer?<br>
</div>
Thank you<br>
</div>
Marie<br>
</div>
ContraMontreal</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Callers mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net" target="_blank">Callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.sharedweight.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedwei<wbr>ght.net</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="m_69384111567589893mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
Callers mailing list
<a class="m_69384111567589893moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net" target="_blank">Callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a>
<a class="m_69384111567589893moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net" target="_blank">http://lists.sharedweight.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/callers-<wbr>sharedweight.net</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Callers mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Callers@lists.sharedweight.net">Callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.sharedweight.net/<wbr>listinfo.cgi/callers-<wbr>sharedweight.net</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>