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Here's the thing:<br>
<br>
- There really is harassment, creepy behavior, etc.<br>
- There really are cases where third parties see those things and
they aren't actually there in the eyes of the perceived victim<br>
<br>
So organizers have to keep their eyes open and review things on a
case by case basis. Because one organizer has seen unjustified
third-party charges of harrassment doesn't mean this particular case
is one of those; because another organizer can multiply real
examples of unacceptable behavior doesn't mean this particular case
is one of them.<br>
<br>
It doesn't, in my view, help discourse to tell people who have real
experiences on one side or the other of that that they're not taking
the situation seriously enough / taking the situation too seriously
and, implicitly, that your experiences trump their experiences.<br>
<br>
-- Alan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/9/15 1:44 PM, Ron Blechner via
Callers wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CALf+g+4N8ZHpdT3TpmN1HcUKHZF8BYtvE9NE4VjUzUSAfeisjw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
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<p dir="ltr">Harassment is real. It's widespread, and pretending
it isn't hurts people and keeps people away from our dances.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Things I have personally witnessed, and when
subsequently asked the dancer whether anything was unusual, they
confirmed:</p>
<p dir="ltr">One dancer has a habit of grabbing hip *just* at the
butt-line. One of the young women was 15.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Another dancer intentionally threw a quarter on the
ground in front of a young 20-something lady. I watched in
horror as she bent over and picked it up as he leered.</p>
<p dir="ltr">One dancer did a frontways dip to a 20-something lady
which included torso-torso frontal contact. No permission was
asked. </p>
<p dir="ltr">Another dancer came in drunk / high and was dancing
wild.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Another dancer has a habit of intentionally
shoulder-checked men who have called him out on his creepiness.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Another dancer was swinging way too close. Turns out
he was following a minor around and asking completely
inappropriate questions.</p>
<p dir="ltr">And I have more of these stories. Seriously, the list
goes on and on.</p>
<p dir="ltr"> I've been dancing far fewer years than many on this
list, and danced at many different dances - this isn't limited
to one dance community. And these are just the stories I've
verified.<br>
So are all of your eyes closed?</p>
<p dir="ltr">So... Yeah. I absolutely think that we should keep
our eyes open. I think we should calmly and privately inquire
when we think we see inappropriate behavior. We should be
absolutely receptive that sometimes behavior is seen and a
victim is too afraid to step forward on their own. </p>
<p dir="ltr">And we should stop with such flippant and potentially
dangerous phrases like "crying wolf" or that people need to just
grow up and "act like an adult" because bad stuff happens.<br>
</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sep 9, 2015 4:04 PM, "Martha Wild via
Callers" <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net">callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Yeah, we had a guy at one
dance complain bitterly that other men were being creepy
with his girlfriend. But when I spoke with her, she said
there was no problem, they'd done no more than gypsy and
swing her and occasionally speak to her with advice on the
dance. The more I spoke with the two of them the more I
wanted to yell at the woman - run fast, very fast, as far
away from this control freak as you can!!!! But I suppose it
was not my place to warn her right in front of him. No
surprise they never returned.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Martha</div>
<div><br>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Sep 9, 2015, at 7:39 AM, Lindsay Morris via
Callers wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Appreciate that. Don't think the
"where there's smoke there's fire" issue applies
here, though. It would if there were several <b>different</b>
women complaining about one man...</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>--------------------<br>
Lindsay Morris<br>
CEO, TSMworks<br>
Tel. <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:1-859-539-9900"
value="+18595399900" target="_blank">1-859-539-9900</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lindsay@tsmworks.com"
target="_blank">lindsay@tsmworks.com</a></div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at
10:34 AM, Ron Blechner <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:contraron@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:contraron@gmail.com">contraron@gmail.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<p dir="ltr">Hi Lindsay,</p>
<p dir="ltr">I realize this is a tricky topic,
so apologies in advance if my brevity comes
off as bruskness.</p>
<p dir="ltr">These two suggestions work for
Amherst Contra. </p>
<p dir="ltr">As a proxy complaint comes in, a
board member would seek out the source.
Anonymous complaints are permitted, and a
high level of ensuring that we ask
open-ended questions, and not leading
questions. </p>
<p dir="ltr">We also wear board member buttons
at dances and make regular announcements
about us being available for any reason.
Usually 4-7 members of our board attend any
dance.</p>
<p dir="ltr">You might speak privately to Will
Loving, our lead organizer, if you're
interested in more specifics.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I would also caution about making
such definitive statements as "just an
accusation". In my experience, where there's
smoke, there's fire. For every accusation,
there's five people who are too
uncomfortable to speak up.</p>
<p dir="ltr">That said, I have seen the
success of proactive addressing of issues.
The biggest benefit is simple:</p>
<p dir="ltr">Address it early when it's small,
and not a huge deal. Maybe it's a simple
misunderstanding. Maybe the person needed a
clear boundary drawn. But wait until there's
a pile of complaints, and you've already
lost dancers and the resolution will need to
be more severe for the offender.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Best regards,<br>
Ron Blechner</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>On Sep 9, 2015 10:08 AM, "Lindsay
Morris via Callers" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:callers@lists.sharedweight.net">callers@lists.sharedweight.net</a></a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
</div>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">Chris
Weiler's <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Positive-Solutions-Chris.pdf"
target="_blank">Positive
Solutions</a> on dealing with
problem dancers, and the <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.puttinonthedance.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/09-12-16-CDU-policy-on-inappropriate-behavior.pdf"
target="_blank">CDU Policy</a>
are thoughtful and useful
documents.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">We have a
different problem here.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">One woman
often complains to board members
about men she sees as creepers or
sexual predators. She reports
their misbehavior on behalf of
their victims. The victims don't
initiate these reports.* </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
Many others <b>don't</b> see
these men as creepy or
inappropriate. Recently one of
the "victims" clarified that her
discomfort with the man was a year
ago and she'd long ago dealt with
it to her satisfaction. The man
in question had heard only rumors
that some nameless woman was
unhappy about some nameless thing
he'd done.<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">This woman
also publicly asked that young
women who feel harassed should
talk to her about it. We feel
that's the Board's job, not hers.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">It seems
that this woman is fishing for -
or even inventing -
"naughty-dancer" problems. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">When a
married man gets accused of being
a sexual predator, his wife has to
wonder if it's true. This adds to
any marital tensions they may
already have. So, while this
woman is not actually punching
anybody in the face, it seems to
me that she's committing
violence. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">How should
we handle this?</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">
<ul>
<li>I think we need a "No proxy
complaints" policy - i.e., the
victim has to speak up (and
then our process will usually
fix simple miscommunication
issues).<br>
</li>
<li>We need to clearly identify
board members, so genuine
victims know who to talk to.<br>
</li>
</ul>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">But does
anybody have other ideas about
preventing one person's issues
from poisoning the atmosphere of
a mostly friendly dance?<br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">____</div>
<div class="gmail_extra">* I know,
victims often have a hard time
stepping up and complaining, so
advocacy may be a good thing. But
that's a different discussion. In
these situations, there's no
victim; there's no predator;
there's just an accusation with
little to back it up. </div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
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